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  #81  
Old 02.12.2020, 18:45
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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I doubt the World is safer with Pakistan having a nuke , but I am convinced that if those Dutch, Belgian and French 'scientists' who sold nuclear tech to Pakistan under the table were preemptively and timely wacked we would not have to ponder the nuclear Pakistans today. So yes , extrajudicial killings are justified and sometimes necessary. It is amazing how much good could be accomplished by eliminating just a few bad actors.
Iraq - no bomb, Saddam Hussein dead, hundreds of thousands murdered by the US
Lybia - Ghaddafi agreed to not acquire the bomb, now he's dead, probably tens of thousands killed in civil war
Syriah - no bomb, the US would have overthrown the government by now had they not had Russia's help
Iran - agreed to not get the bomb, two central figures murdered, war threatened.
North Korea - got the bomb and all of a sudden Trump is willing to talk, and even implicitly recognise the government doing so. Also member of the purported axis of evil, but thanks to the bomb they're probably safe now.

Must be pure coincidence that all of the above are part of Bush's Axis of Evil.

Oh, and of course the very country that terrorises others, not just by threatening war but by actually invading, is also the only one to have used the bomb. Ever.

The bottom line is that US politics make nuclear weapons attractive, possibly the only means of survival, for many a state. Looks like Kim has learned the lesson and will not agree to any kind of nuclear disarmement, and you can't really blame him. All the same Trump keeps pushing Iran in the same direction and acts suprised when Iran reacts according to their self-interest.
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  #82  
Old 02.12.2020, 18:50
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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They launched a Twitter campaign instead that effectively discredited him.
Not quite the same as getting a bullet in the back though, is it?
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  #83  
Old 02.12.2020, 21:02
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Iraq - no bomb, Saddam Hussein dead, hundreds of thousands murdered by the US
Lybia - Ghaddafi agreed to not acquire the bomb, now he's dead, probably tens of thousands killed in civil war
Syriah - no bomb, the US would have overthrown the government by now had they not had Russia's help
Iran - agreed to not get the bomb, two central figures murdered, war threatened.
North Korea - got the bomb and all of a sudden Trump is willing to talk, and even implicitly recognise the government doing so. Also member of the purported axis of evil, but thanks to the bomb they're probably safe now.

Must be pure coincidence that all of the above are part of Bush's Axis of Evil.

Oh, and of course the very country that terrorises others, not just by threatening war but by actually invading, is also the only one to have used the bomb. Ever.

The bottom line is that US politics make nuclear weapons attractive, possibly the only means of survival, for many a state. Looks like Kim has learned the lesson and will not agree to any kind of nuclear disarmement, and you can't really blame him. All the same Trump keeps pushing Iran in the same direction and acts suprised when Iran reacts according to their self-interest.
Non-proliferation only works if there is a strong consensus amid the large powers to prevent nuclear armament. It is ridiculous to blame the US here. Where are China and Russia in this? I can barely accept who already has the bomb, and I sincerely believe preventing Iran and similar regimes from getting the bomb is worth a lot. And one should have been a bit less forgiving with North Korea (again, China, where the F are you). And yes, it has a cost.
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  #84  
Old 02.12.2020, 21:06
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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And as far as I'm aware, the leaders of Pakistan and India have never called for the destruction of another country (except possibly each other).
I believe this is the one exception. Quite a meaningful one.
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  #85  
Old 02.12.2020, 21:07
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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So, with the way you look at the world, the KGB should have got into the U.S. and gunned down a professor of physics at UC, Berkley, namely J.Robert Oppenheimer?
Russia and the US were allies during that war.

There were around fifteen people illegally funneling the design information to the Russians.

So the Russians had two grounds to be motivated that J.Robert Oppenheimer lived to succeed.
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  #86  
Old 02.12.2020, 21:32
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Russia and the US were allies during that war.
Really?

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There were around fifteen people illegally funneling the design information to the Russians.

So the Russians had two grounds to be motivated that J.Robert Oppenheimer lived to succeed.
I suppose the question one would have to ask is whether the Russians would have preferred neither them or the U.S. having the A-Bomb or both of them.

If the U.S. hadn't developed it, the war in the Far East would have dragged on but how much would this have affected Russia? Not much I think.
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  #87  
Old 02.12.2020, 22:15
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Really?



I suppose the question one would have to ask is whether the Russians would have preferred neither them or the U.S. having the A-Bomb or both of them.

If the U.S. hadn't developed it, the war in the Far East would have dragged on but how much would this have affected Russia? Not much I think.
On August 8, 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army.

Western historiographers have long noted the alleged dominant role of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ignoring the decisive contribution of the Soviet Union to the victory.

In the Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors of 17 August 1945, the commander-in-chief of the Japanese army and navy, Emperor Hirohito, called the USSR’s entry into the war the main reason for the surrender. “Now that the Soviet Union has also entered the war against us, continuing resistance ... means endangering the very foundation of our empire’s existence,” the document says.
American atomic bombs and the destruction of cities are not mentioned in it.

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  #88  
Old 02.12.2020, 22:24
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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So, with the way you look at the world, the KGB should have got into the U.S. and gunned down a professor of physics at UC, Berkley, namely J.Robert Oppenheimer?
I am sure they would have considered assassinations to delay Manhattan project so the Soviets could catch up.
But they did not have to, they had Communist sympathizers and spies who ferried all US nuke secretes to Stalin.
Would I think it would be justified to do? Absolutely. And if you want a bit of liberal soft-ball : It could have saved 100,000 Japanese lives.
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  #89  
Old 02.12.2020, 23:55
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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In the Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors of 17 August 1945, the commander-in-chief of the Japanese army and navy, Emperor Hirohito, called the USSR’s entry into the war the main reason for the surrender. “Now that the Soviet Union has also entered the war against us, continuing resistance ... means endangering the very foundation of our empire’s existence,” the document says.
American atomic bombs and the destruction of cities are not mentioned in it.

Then again I believe that had the two bombs not been dropped, governments may not have gone:"Woah!" after seeing the devastation and I´m speculating that perhaps, without this restraint, the lesson would have been learned when more bombs were available and more countries willing to use them.
In my opinion the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not die in vain.
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  #90  
Old 03.12.2020, 15:06
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Really?
Yes. Perhaps read up on the Lend-Lease Act and the conferences between Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt.
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Non-proliferation only works if there is a strong consensus amid the large powers to prevent nuclear armament. It is ridiculous to blame the US here.
Where and who did Israel get the technology and materials for their 200 bombs from? Looks like there's good proliferation and bad depending on one's double standards.
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I sincerely believe preventing Iran and similar regimes from getting the bomb is worth a lot
I agree. But making the bomb the obvious means of survival, as the US do, creates a clear incentive to the contrary. It's much more effective to not make the bomb attractive in the first place, which is why Trump's leaving the nuclear agreement is such a stupid thing. Even more so as Iran is reported to have kept to it 100%.
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  #91  
Old 03.12.2020, 16:25
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Yes. Perhaps read up on the Lend-Lease Act and the conferences between Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt.
I was being sarcastic.
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  #92  
Old 03.12.2020, 16:48
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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On August 8, 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army.

Western historiographers have long noted the alleged dominant role of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ignoring the decisive contribution of the Soviet Union to the victory.

In the Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors of 17 August 1945, the commander-in-chief of the Japanese army and navy, Emperor Hirohito, called the USSR’s entry into the war the main reason for the surrender. “Now that the Soviet Union has also entered the war against us, continuing resistance ... means endangering the very foundation of our empire’s existence,” the document says.
American atomic bombs and the destruction of cities are not mentioned in it.

I think it was probably a combination of both the two A-bombs and the USSR invading Manchuria - irrespectively of what was actually publicly said at the time.

I recollect studying Manchuria and the 1931 Japanese invasion in quite some depth at school!
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Old 05.12.2020, 15:14
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Iraq - no bomb, Saddam Hussein dead, hundreds of thousands murdered by the US
Lybia - Ghaddafi agreed to not acquire the bomb, now he's dead, probably tens of thousands killed in civil war
Syriah - no bomb, the US would have overthrown the government by now had they not had Russia's help
Iran - agreed to not get the bomb, two central figures murdered, war threatened.
North Korea - got the bomb and all of a sudden Trump is willing to talk, and even implicitly recognise the government doing so. Also member of the purported axis of evil, but thanks to the bomb they're probably safe now.

Must be pure coincidence that all of the above are part of Bush's Axis of Evil.

Oh, and of course the very country that terrorises others, not just by threatening war but by actually invading, is also the only one to have used the bomb. Ever.

The bottom line is that US politics make nuclear weapons attractive, possibly the only means of survival, for many a state. Looks like Kim has learned the lesson and will not agree to any kind of nuclear disarmement, and you can't really blame him. All the same Trump keeps pushing Iran in the same direction and acts suprised when Iran reacts according to their self-interest.
Iraq and Libya were Brutal dictatorships. Iran & North Korea still are. Iran has many times declared it's genocidal intentions.

The U.S is still the superpower which protects the WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich & Democratic) countries.

Having a nuclear weapon helps dictators to stay in power but it keeps their subjects in misery.
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  #94  
Old 05.12.2020, 21:09
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Having a nuclear weapon helps dictators to stay in power but it keeps their subjects in misery.
I'm pretty sure hundreds thousands Syrians that were killed by the civil war would have preferred misery to death if given the choice. Same for the 10+ millions refugees the war created.

Baschar al-Assad is no saint, no doubt. But claiming that his regime was even remotely as deadly and destructive as the war is ridiculous beyond compare. It does show however that you give a damn about anybody who's not jewish, the very people who should have the most sympathy for any group suffering from war or systematic destruction/murder.
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Old 05.12.2020, 21:23
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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I'm pretty sure hundreds thousands Syrians that were killed by the civil war would have preferred misery to death if given the choice. Same for the 10+ millions refugees the war created.

Baschar al-Assad is no saint, no doubt. But claiming that his regime was even remotely as deadly and destructive as the war is ridiculous beyond compare. It does show however that you give a damn about anybody who's not jewish, the very people who should have the most sympathy for any group suffering from war or systematic destruction/murder.
Just that the civil war in Syria has very little to do with Iran, Israel or nuclear weapons.
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Old 05.12.2020, 21:57
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

Syria was a stable country, it was for most part secular, mostly tolerant to other religions, it had a high quality of healthcare, the infrastructure was good and intact and people were happy or unhappy as you would expect from any country you and I are used to. And you could get beer without a license.
The Assads had a de-facto contract with the citizens: "leave us in power and we will give you what you want!" It was an agreement that more or less worked for all concerned.
The only unhappy ones were the tooth-gnashing islamics and the US
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Old 05.12.2020, 22:31
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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Just that the civil war in Syria has very little to do with Iran, Israel or nuclear weapons.
heh? except that Syria is often target of Israeli' airstrikes and Iranian military advisors are helping to keep Asad's regime. Like other countries in the area, it is a playground for bigger forces.
What many doesn't want to see is that the actions of external enemy pushes Iranian people to support the political system that is, otherwise, not exactly loved in Iran. And I am sure that USA, Israel and Saudis know this very well.

I am far from supporter of theocracies or dictatorship, I would like to see them all disappear. Sadly since Bush's escapades in Iraq, I cannot un-see what so called war on terror is: opportunistic power and money grabs, which, with an excuse of bringing justice and democracy leave behind destroyed countries, dead and unsettled people....
Killing a soldier-scientist is not a victory for peace making policy, it is just another episode in prolonging a war. Anyone applauding more warmongering is for me, either extremely insular and biased or simply corrupt.
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Old 05.12.2020, 22:35
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

You may want to do some background reading on the Syrian civil war before applying the narrative that the Great Satan and the Zionists are behind everything.
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Old 05.12.2020, 23:42
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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You may want to do some background reading on the Syrian civil war before applying the narrative that the Great Satan and the Zionists are behind everything.
What a shame, elsewhere you come across as interested in reasonable and nuanced discussion.
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Old 05.12.2020, 23:53
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Re: Nuclear Scientist killed in Iran.

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What a shame, elsewhere you come across as interested in reasonable and nuanced discussion.
I am more than happy to have a reasonable dicussion - just don't give me this condescending, disappointed tone.
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