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  #21  
Old 01.01.2021, 18:53
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

WE DONT CARE ANYMORE!

The most retarded act of self harm is now done...you can't answer such a question without giving credibility to those who did it.

Time will tell what will happen to the UK now but at last we will stop listening to them lying every day about the EU and blaming them for everything.
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  #22  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:01
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Shouting Brexit is Done is just nonsense. Nothing is done- and the Union is truly at risk and the EU much strengthened in the process.

The Editorial from the Guardian yesterday (oh I hear the groans- the Guardian hey !) says it so well. Nothing is done - and taking back control is just a bunch of empty words again. Deviate from EU rules on goods or services (mind you, we don't know yet anything about services !!!) and the EU will slap tariffs- how can that be a victory? Utter nonsense

''But at least the EU can no longer be blamed for our continuing tensions, inequalities and failures of governance.

These tensions cannot be magicked away. Brexit was opposed by majorities in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and London and other cities, as well as by most young people and most graduates. None of that is going to change, whatever the overall majority verdict was in 2016 and however tired of the argument we all may be. This is a country divided over Europe. We were divided in the past and we will be divided in the future. Getting Brexit done is a fantasy. It is a supposed solution that only creates new historic problems.

In 2016, many of the most fanatical Brexiters hoped the UKís departure would trigger the EUís breakup. Yet two of the most striking consequences of the vote were the unity of the EU27 in the face of Brexit compared with the growing disunity of the UK4 over the issue. The breakup of Britain rather than the EU is now the more likely prospect. It would be a terrible price to pay. But the delusions that fed and fostered Brexit still have much of the Conservative party and press in their grip, as a number of gloating speeches from the Tory benches on Wednesday indicated.

Theresa Mayís warning from those benches posed a far more real question. We must never allow ourselves to think that sovereignty means isolationism or exceptionalism, said Mrs May. We live in an interconnected world, she added. In some ways Mr Johnson seems to understand this. His Commons speech spoke of Britain as ďthe best friend and ally the EU could haveĒ, which perhaps marked a change of tone. But the movement he leads is not interested in alliances or compromises. It feeds off fantasies of greatness, which Mr Johnson constantly indulges. It fatally confuses sovereignty with power.

Brexit is done Ė but it is not over. In the medium term it leaves behind all manner of sources of future conflict for British politics. These include the fine print of the agreement (ignored altogether in Wednesdayís parody of a scrutiny process), new immigration controls, the maintenance of regulatory alignment, the status of service industries, fishing, access to databases, defence cooperation and, perhaps above all, the ambiguous place of Northern Ireland within the deal. All of these are iterations of a deeper truth: that we shall never cease to be Europeans and will never cease to engage with Europe.''
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  #23  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:02
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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So far, only a few have responded as to whether he has done a good job with the Deal he 'negotiated' and the few who did, did not give any reasons or argumentation as to why.
Brexit is different things to different people:

- an end to nationality based discrimination on immigration
- freedom to diverge from EU on trade
- local jurisprudence

Broadly the objectives seem to have been more or less met. Perhaps less so if you are a fisherman. Long term we need to position ourselves away from the EU as it's a low growth area and towards Asia and the US.
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  #24  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:06
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

what do you mean by 'diverge from EU on Trade'.

Divergence = tariffs in this deal. Nonsense.

What is your take on the Deal reached on Services and Financial Services (now this is going to be a tougher one to answer).
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  #25  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:10
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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So far, only a few have responded as to whether he has done a good job with the Deal he 'negotiated' and the few who did, did not give any reasons or argumentation as to why.
In terms of the deal, surely those who support Brexit should have major issues with the Northern Ireland settlement, essentially putting a border between GB and NI. Johnson lied on this, there will be checks on goods. Seems like this has all now been forgotten about. UK is still massively divided despite this deal, question I have how will Johnson make good on his promise to unite the country. In Scotland right now the Tories have nothing to say to people there, Tories seem to be burying their head in the sands regarding indyref2. Seems Johnson is only playing to his base, neglecting areas that don't support him. Begs the question, what's the point of the union?
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  #26  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:13
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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what do you mean by 'diverge from EU on Trade'.

Divergence = tariffs in this deal. Nonsense.

What is your take on the Deal reached on Services and Financial Services (now this is going to be a tougher one to answer).
Well - there's already been trade deals that go beyond the EUs. Japan being the first.

As for financial services. Really London is more than rEU put together. I don't pretend to understand the world of finance particularly but I've been assured by friends in banking that it only makes a difference in very select low margin areas.
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  #27  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:15
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

The Union will break a lot quicker than the EU- tragically.
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  #28  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:17
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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In terms of the deal, surely those who support Brexit should have major issues with the Northern Ireland settlement, essentially putting a border between GB and NI. Johnson lied on this, there will be checks on goods. Seems like this has all now been forgotten about. UK is still massively divided despite this deal, question I have how will Johnson make good on his promise to unite the country. In Scotland right now the Tories have nothing to say to people there, Tories seem to be burying their head in the sands regarding indyref2. Seems Johnson is only playing to his base, neglecting areas that don't support him. Begs the question, what's the point of the union?
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The Union will break a lot quicker than the EU- tragically.
This was in the pipeline before brexit tbh. I admit brexit may have sped it but the roots were already there. Northern Ireland is becoming more and more catholic each year - which can ultimately only lead to one thing.

Scotland referendum 1 was already reasonably close. SNP had already kicked labour out both at Westminster and in Holyrood. This before 2016. Still not entirely sure whether voters there would be up for another 5 years of tortuous negotiations but that's there call not mine. I'd appreciate it if they stopped trying to annex parts of my home county (Northumberland) mind.

TBH I don't really mind - it's democracy and the right to self-determination.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 01.01.2021 at 19:29.
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  #29  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:18
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Time will tell, but for now he gets a bit of goodwill as some weeks ago the outlook was much bleaker and at least on the surface of it it looks like a reasonable deal for both. Mind that the financial sector is not addressed yet, which is arguably the much bigger item than fishery.

No idea how this deal compares to previously available solutions though.

On the growth prospects of the UK being outside of the EU, I have my doubts how they would be improved. Whether EU itself is growing or not, it is still a huge market in which the competitiveness of UK services (and maybe also products) has gotten lower.
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Old 01.01.2021, 19:27
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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The Union will break a lot quicker than the EU- tragically.
Agreed, and it's also ironic that many of the arguments for and against Scottish independence are rememiscent of the EU debate, eg taking back control from undemocratic establishmentl could also easily apply as an argument against Westminster/house of lords/electoral system in London.

Three things have really tipped the scales in Scotland in favour of independence, of which two Johnson is directly responsible. One being Brexit and how an especially hard Brexit was pursued, the second the handling of the pandemic (contrast btn sturgeon and Johnson) and finally Boris Johnson himself! He has to be the most loathed PM in Scotland since Thatcher.....so going back to the question of is Johnson doing a good job and is his deal a good deal, it really does depend where you live in UK!
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  #31  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:31
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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handling of the pandemic (contrast btn sturgeon and Johnson)
They've done almost exactly the same thing in unison.... Objectively the Performance of both has been poor. At least UK has ordered enough vaccine - unlike the EU.
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  #32  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:36
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Agreed, and it's also ironic that many of the arguments for and against Scottish independence are rememiscent of the EU debate, eg taking back control from undemocratic establishmentl could also easily apply as an argument against Westminster/house of lords/electoral system in London.
Westminster is democratic, Scotland is just outnumbered ...

But.., I agree with your perspective. There's an entirely rational position for a Scotsman to be pro-Brexit and pro-independence.

I can't see Scotland joining the EU if it means adopting the Euro. Perhaps EEA could be a sensible answer for them.
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  #33  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:40
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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So far, only a few have responded as to whether he has done a good job with the Deal he 'negotiated' and the few who did, did not give any reasons or argumentation as to why.
In fairness neither have you.

I havenít read all the details yet so canít really say at the moment.
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  #34  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:54
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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I think the summary from analysis that I have read is that it is not exactly 'ideal', but the essential four freedoms of the EU were preserved and I think it could also have been much worse (at least in the short term) if we had lost access to the single market. It will add tons of red tape and regulations to travel, trade and businesses though.
The essential four freedoms have NOT been preserved; if they had been, there would be no customs formalities or duties, no quotas in CH this year for British immigrants etc etc etc.

I've looked into very limited parts of the deal this week in some detail in terms of how it affects translators and interpreters. On the plus side, at least translation & interpreting are explicitly included in the deal - creatives etc are thoroughly screwed by it. On the negative side, there are huge amounts of derogations (about 50% of EU countries are likely to impose some sort of restrictions even though the agreement as a whole allows for cross-border service provision), there are limitations on what can be done depending on whether translators are staff translators, independent under a limited company or sole traders, B2C Ok for some but not others, work through agencies may or may not be allowed, depending how LSPs are defined (and the term for agencies used in the agreement is not defined); the term "legal person of a Party" is defined but not "natural person of a Party", some of the drafting is in places so opaque even professors of EU law struggled to make out what it means.... I could go on. The whole thing seems very rushed.

(If anyone is interested from the T&I side:
https://twitter.com/sailcloudnine/st...11109029945345
naturally with the caveats noted in there)
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  #35  
Old 01.01.2021, 19:54
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Oh I have, both on this and the other thread. Loud and clear and backed with my reasons and that of experts. Crystal clear.
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  #36  
Old 01.01.2021, 20:10
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Westminster is democratic, Scotland is just outnumbered ...

But.., I agree with your perspective. There's an entirely rational position for a Scotsman to be pro-Brexit and pro-independence.

I can't see Scotland joining the EU if it means adopting the Euro. Perhaps EEA could be a sensible answer for them.
I completely disagree that Westminster is fully democratic, first past the post system is unfair and essentially makes millions of votes meaningless, house of lords (need I say any more!) ....it is clear wholesale reform is needed, conservatives not even talking about any of those issues. Holyrood elections are more democratic. I agree Johnson and sturgeon have gone step by step in restrictions but have been poles apart on communication, messaging... contrast how Johnson stood up for Cummings, sturgeon condemned Ferrier. I'm not saying sturgeon is faultless but in the eyes of many has been a lot more capable in handling of the pandemic
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  #37  
Old 01.01.2021, 20:11
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Makes every incompetent politician appear competent.
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  #38  
Old 01.01.2021, 20:22
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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I completely disagree that Westminster is fully democratic, first past the post system is unfair and essentially makes millions of votes meaningless
Well in 2011 the SNP got a majority of seats without a majority of votes , so I don't think it can truly be said that there is a substantial difference in fair representation.

Real Australian style PR ensures the election of joke candidates - eg "Australian Sports Party".
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  #39  
Old 01.01.2021, 20:47
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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The Union will break a lot quicker than the EU- tragically.
This is just another wild guess.

I donít like brexit but in the time weíve watched it can remember:

Itís only advisory.
Itís not legally binding.
It wonít be possible.
The eu wonít renegotiate the deal they did with May.
America wonít allow it.
It will never happen because of the GFA.

Thatís just a few. But it does happen. And it has. It seems to me that Boris Johnson is the one person who got brexit done after no end of miserable failures. And in doing so while remain supporting people said Ďyou canít / wonít / mustnt / dare not / donít understandí he just ploughed on and got it done.

How it turns out weíll just have to see. It may be poor, but it may be good. Right now you just donít know. A few lorries at the port is not a judged outcome. Look at investment levels on a 5 year horizon and other sensible metrics to start to judge in the future if it has worked.

If it hasnít heíll be judged a failure. If itís a success, he will be judged so, but Iím certain it wonít have stopped you picking the next thing, be it indyref 2, Ireland breakup or whatever you choose and bemoaning that Johnson doesnít understand it and is about to be shown up as a clown.
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Old 01.01.2021, 21:08
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Well - there's already been trade deals that go beyond the EUs. Japan being the first.

As for financial services. Really London is more than rEU put together. I don't pretend to understand the world of finance particularly but I've been assured by friends in banking that it only makes a difference in very select low margin areas.
It also looks increasingly as if Financial Services may have deliberately not been covered to avoid regulatory requirements from Brussels. As you say though, the impact will be minor.

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They've done almost exactly the same thing in unison.... Objectively the Performance of both has been poor. At least UK has ordered enough vaccine - unlike the EU.
Remarkable that people still believe that Nicola Sturgeon has handled the crisis better than the rest of the UK. The only thing she done is look better on camera when giving her daily political broadcasts covid updates.
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