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  #81  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:04
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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I disagree with the comments lazily suggesting it's just a hatred of the English.
Of course it isn't just that- but that is a background that exposes itself now and then, like it or not.
I totally agree with your comments about the way Scotland has been treated recently. I too, worked hard on my Scottish family to vote to remain in the UK in 2014 and I now feel like a mug for doing so as Scotland is so clearly not represented by our current leaders.

Last edited by Castro; 02.01.2021 at 14:10. Reason: Fixed quote
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  #82  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:13
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Just to be clear: brexit was never about reducing discrimination. Many of the brexiteers had bigoted arguments but I never heard that they wanted to be less discriminatory towards Pakistanis instead of Polish...
Anyway: none of any of that has been met for Northern Ireland. And the Scots apparently prefer to be part of a powerful trading block instead of a former superpower with an ego problem.

Brexit will be bad for everyone, but it’s clearly worse for the UK than the EU.
Well, it was a factor in my vote as part of a then UK - Non-EU couple (she has since naturalised). If you are interested, no she isn't white.

I had to pay about 4000 CHF to get my wife permanent residence on the UK - whereas EU people pay nothing. That didn't help me get on side. I consider that to be racism. Pure and simple.

Have you actually taken care to look at where the votes came from. Take Newham as an example. It's c. 15% White British. The leave vote was 47%. And the more prosperous whiter areas close to the river voted more remain. The ethnic minority vote must have been close to 50/50 there.

You could also look at any number of deprived mill towns in the north with high ethnic minority populations and a high brexit vote. It didn't come just from the whites.

Nor is it just a working class phenomenon. Look at Sevenoaks for instance. Very very prosperous town. Voted leave. Same for Tonbridge.

The Reality is That the EU is deathly unpopular and seem as undemocratic (hard to argue against that!) outside the chattering classes in urban areas.

I'll rise over the temptation to point out who has the ego problem. I'll give you a clue - it's those that make themselves unsackable by the electorate. That's treating joe public with the utmost contempt.
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  #83  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:27
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Reading the last few posts about Scotland, it seems to me that the 300 year union is not that strong at all. More like 300 years of resentment.

About how much say Scotland would have in the EU, would it not be logical to assume that Scotland would have a veto, like everyone else ? Scotlands influence would be diluted, but I think a veto is more than they have now in the UK (but am not sure). Can you imagine Scotland using the veto to block England from getting back in the EU ?
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  #84  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:31
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Personally, I'm rooting for Northern Ireland to join Ireland again as long as it involves a peaceful transition.
Why do you take the side of one half of the population over the other? I find that very childish and a bit racist. I know the DUP aren't very nice people but SF are if anything even worse. At least the DUP make a pretence at not being the political wing of a terrorist organisation.

Reality is with NI any sudden change will spark civil war again. It needs to be treated with the utmost care and all that really matters is that we don't go back to the troubles again.

Ironically the NI unionists have a Scottish, not English ethnic origin.
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  #85  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:34
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Reading the last few posts about Scotland, it seems to me that the 300 year union is not that strong at all. More like 300 years of resentment.

About how much say Scotland would have in the EU, would it not be logical to assume that Scotland would have a veto, like everyone else ? Scotlands influence would be diluted, but I think a veto is more than they have now in the UK (but am not sure). Can you imagine Scotland using the veto to block England from getting back in the EU ?
You do realise that the King of Scotland took over the English throne not vice versa??

We (the English) will not be returning (or begging to return) to the EU in it's current state. It's just a Europhiles wet dream. Even labour are ruling it out.

I have no interest in telling Scotland what to do. I'd give them their referendum in 5 or 10 years when there's time to evaluate brexit.
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  #86  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:37
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Reading the last few posts about Scotland, it seems to me that the 300 year union is not that strong at all. More like 300 years of resentment.

About how much say Scotland would have in the EU, would it not be logical to assume that Scotland would have a veto, like everyone else ?
V4 are vetoing and look where it got them.

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Scotlands influence would be diluted, but I think a veto is more than they have now in the UK (but am not sure). Can you imagine Scotland using the veto to block England from getting back in the EU ?
No. And why would they care, tbh. Only egos believe in vengeance.It's expensive.
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  #87  
Old 02.01.2021, 14:45
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Amusingly as a brexiteer not only is my wife non-white, but my sister in law is a Northern Irish Catholic.
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  #88  
Old 02.01.2021, 15:07
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Why do you take the side of one half of the population over the other? I find that very childish and a bit racist. I know the DUP aren't very nice people but SF are if anything even worse. At least the DUP make a pretence at not being the political wing of a terrorist organisation.

Reality is with NI any sudden change will spark civil war again. It needs to be treated with the utmost care and all that really matters is that we don't go back to the troubles again.

Ironically the NI unionists have a Scottish, not English ethnic origin.
Childish? Racist? That says a lot more about you than about me.

Northern Ireland's free health care and negotiated trade leniency may bring some short-term advantages and no one wants the troubles to start again. The reunification decision will have to be two-fold: both from Northern Ireland and from the Republic of Ireland.
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  #89  
Old 02.01.2021, 16:04
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Lots of Scottish have a deep and ingrained cultural hatred of the English that has been passed down through the generations since medieval times when they were brutally subjugated. They have been treated like vassals ever since and still have a fiercely independent national pride.

Scotland wanting to break from the UK, become independent and join the EU again is a similar principle to Brexit on a smaller scale. I think one day they might get the support to do it too, though it would sadden me greatly if they did.
Can you explain how leaving the UK and joining the EU is similar to Brexit? I don’t see any similarities
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  #90  
Old 02.01.2021, 16:27
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Childish? Racist? That says a lot more about you than about me.

Northern Ireland's free health care and negotiated trade leniency may bring some short-term advantages and no one wants the troubles to start again. The reunification decision will have to be two-fold: both from Northern Ireland and from the Republic of Ireland.
Well what is your rationale?

Maybe the answer is if Scotland becomes independent NI goes with Scotland.... After all - the unionist community emigrated from Scotland largely before the UK existed.

I would hope ROI gives strongly unionist NI areas devolution.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 02.01.2021 at 16:39.
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  #91  
Old 02.01.2021, 17:52
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Well, it was a factor in my vote as part of a then UK - Non-EU couple (she has since naturalised). If you are interested, no she isn't white.

I had to pay about 4000 CHF to get my wife permanent residence on the UK - whereas EU people pay nothing. That didn't help me get on side. I consider that to be racism. Pure and simple.

Have you actually taken care to look at where the votes came from. Take Newham as an example. It's c. 15% White British. The leave vote was 47%. And the more prosperous whiter areas close to the river voted more remain. The ethnic minority vote must have been close to 50/50 there.

You could also look at any number of deprived mill towns in the north with high ethnic minority populations and a high brexit vote. It didn't come just from the whites.

Nor is it just a working class phenomenon. Look at Sevenoaks for instance. Very very prosperous town. Voted leave. Same for Tonbridge.

The Reality is That the EU is deathly unpopular and seem as undemocratic (hard to argue against that!) outside the chattering classes in urban areas.

I'll rise over the temptation to point out who has the ego problem. I'll give you a clue - it's those that make themselves unsackable by the electorate. That's treating joe public with the utmost contempt.
So your argument is “if my wife gets discriminated against we should also treat those Polish equally bad”? That’s a weird line of thinking... my wife is non-EU and yes, we had to pay quite some time and money on all the naturalization stuff... I not once even thought of “why can Hungarians come here without all that?!”

I never said that Brexit was “white”, but please don’t make it about race... that’s just not true. Yes, a lot of low earning and educated second generation immigrants were competing for jobs with new arrivals from Eastern Europe and therefore voted leave... blaming their economic situation on the EU instead of Westminster is outright idiotic- they suffered from decades of conservative governments that very happily worked against them.

Ego problem: Johnson promised trade deals with the rest of the world, “global Britain”, wasn’t it? Looks like the world didn’t really care and wasn’t waiting for it... cause nothing materialized. Believing that in a world that’s shifting towards Asian economies the UK would even matter on its own is completely off... the UK will not be able to negotiate away any labor laws or environmental rules... very much like Switzerland will it just have to comply to whatever the large trading blocks come up with.
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  #92  
Old 02.01.2021, 18:20
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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very much like Switzerland will it just have to comply to whatever the large trading blocks come up with.
Lets take back control !

But in the end the UK will be the EU's b!tch...
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  #93  
Old 02.01.2021, 18:44
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Can you explain how leaving the UK and joining the EU is similar to Brexit? I don’t see any similarities
For me it's not that Brexit and Scottish independence are the same thing, obviously both have huge constitutional ramifications. It's more that the arguments used by Unionists at the minute such as your economy will crash and will need austerity, to there'll be a hard border and trade will be damaged and there'll be extra customs procedures and bureaucracy to follow are the same as what has actually happened when separating from the EU. What I don't get is how Brexit supporting people are now using these same arguments against Scottish independence even though they support Brexit with the same outcomes for UK. Whenever Johnson talks about the SNP wanting to put a hard border at Berwick, I just think to myself, you're kidding!! That's exactly what he has just done between EU, UK, northern Ireland and great Britain and seemingly now Gibraltar and UK....it's just hypocrisy!
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  #94  
Old 02.01.2021, 19:25
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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For me it's not that Brexit and Scottish independence are the same thing, obviously both have huge constitutional ramifications. It's more that the arguments used by Unionists at the minute such as your economy will crash and will need austerity, to there'll be a hard border and trade will be damaged and there'll be extra customs procedures and bureaucracy to follow are the same as what has actually happened when separating from the EU. What I don't get is how Brexit supporting people are now using these same arguments against Scottish independence even though they support Brexit with the same outcomes for UK. Whenever Johnson talks about the SNP wanting to put a hard border at Berwick, I just think to myself, you're kidding!! That's exactly what he has just done between EU, UK, northern Ireland and great Britain and seemingly now Gibraltar and UK....it's just hypocrisy!
The difference is UK was a net contributor to the EU whereas Scotland isn't close to fiscal break even.

I don't want to talk down a different country but they will need to tighten their belts significantly on independence. Good luck to them whatever.
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  #95  
Old 02.01.2021, 19:29
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Lets take back control !

But in the end the UK will be the EU's b!tch...
Well that's grown up of you!

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 02.01.2021 at 19:46.
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  #96  
Old 02.01.2021, 19:38
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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So your argument is “if my wife gets discriminated against we should also treat those Polish equally bad”? That’s a weird line of thinking... my wife is non-EU and yes, we had to pay quite some time and money on all the naturalization stuff... I not once even thought of “why can Hungarians come here without all that?!”.
The Problem is that by favouring some groups of immigrants you unconsciously make it much harder for others.

My wife found it very hard to get a job in London after graduation because few industries are willing to sponsor a non-EU permit. Now they will be as sufficiently talented Brits aren't numerous enough to fill the jobs going by themselves.

Loads of talented Asian kids in her year (maths at ucl) ended up having to go home even though they wanted to stay. Whatever the rules are I would like them equally applied so these people have a better chance.

Personally I'm not an immigration skeptic - with an aging society you want to take as many young workers as you can. But the rules being egalitarian as respect to nationality is not something I'd be willing to compromise on. I can accept Ireland being the line exception for obvious reasons.

Last edited by HickvonFrick; 02.01.2021 at 19:49.
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  #97  
Old 02.01.2021, 19:49
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Does anybody have a book recommendation on the history of Britain, or parts thereof? Serious question. Ideally something that is a bit entertaining, so could even be a novel. When reading the last couple of pages here, I notice I understand the UK even less than I thought.
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Old 02.01.2021, 19:52
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Does anybody have a book recommendation on the history of Britain, or parts thereof? Serious question. Ideally something that is a bit entertaining, so could even be a novel. When reading the last couple of pages here, I notice I understand the UK even less than I thought.
Isnt there a biography about Queen Elizabeth ? That should cover most of Britains history
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Old 02.01.2021, 19:55
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Isnt there a biography about Queen Elizabeth ? That should cover most of Britains history
You mean Elizabeth I.? The one that saved your lowlands from becoming a colony of Spain?
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  #100  
Old 02.01.2021, 20:01
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Does anybody have a book recommendation on the history of Britain, or parts thereof? Serious question. Ideally something that is a bit entertaining, so could even be a novel. When reading the last couple of pages here, I notice I understand the UK even less than I thought.
Not quite what you asked for but The sceptered isle Radio series was very good.
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