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  #121  
Old 03.01.2021, 12:58
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Erasmus cost about £13,000 per year for each student that took part. Most people of a working class background will never have even heard of it, yet were paying for more privileged students to take part through their taxes.
Probably also a large factor as to why Brexit happened in the first place. The language barrier meant the right exercise free movement was only ever academic for most because of the lack of other European languages.

TC confirms it that the Brexit's grand plan is to drop European languages from the national curriculum and further disadvantage British businesses with a post-Brexit intake of graduates who are lacking in foreign langauge skills when it comes to negotiating skills with any foreign company who's first language isn't English.
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  #122  
Old 03.01.2021, 13:10
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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TC confirms it that the Brexit's grand plan is to drop European languages from the national curriculum and further disadvantage British businesses with a post-Brexit intake of graduates who are lacking in foreign langauge skills when it comes to negotiating skills with any foreign company who's first language isn't English.
I'm (almost) seriously wondering about proposing a new posting rule, whereby any post that wilfully misinterprets a previous post is automatically deleted and the poster banned.

Why, oh why do so many people feel the need to put words in others' mouths like this?
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  #123  
Old 03.01.2021, 13:26
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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I'm (almost) seriously wondering about proposing a new posting rule, whereby any post that wilfully misinterprets a previous post is automatically deleted and the poster banned.

Why, oh why do so many people feel the need to put words in others' mouths like this?
Britain discarding ERASMUS is wide open to interpretation ( for the reasons why ) the simplest being
ERAMUS is european program with a bent for European language skills and european business needs.

The TURING scheme by it's Global approach ( being a thinly disguised Anglosphere approach )
with a bent on English language countries in general and the USA & the Commonwealth in particular.

TC gave his opinion on britain discarding ERASMUS ( language skills ) so it's open for me to give
my opinion on the same 'language skills' line.

Finally - as your no doubt aware 'the reply to quote doesn't always work' - which is shown by
the fact posters have to copy/paste 'the quote' they are 'quoting from' which is quite annoying !!
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Surely the time has come for Boris to 'circle the wagons' for a bit of herd immunity ?

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  #124  
Old 03.01.2021, 13:33
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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.... Scotland is so clearly not represented by our current leaders.
4 in 10 Scots voted to leave the EU. Yes, this means that a clear majority voted to remain, but the way that people talk about Scotland, you'd think that 99% are pro-EU.

More generally, are we destined to keep running the EU referendum campaign on some endless loop? Like it or not, the verdict was to leave the EU, and despite all the legal challenges and parliamentary grandstanding, we have now finally left. In the interim period we've had two general elections and a European parliamentary election in which a majority opposition to our continued membership has been demonstrated every time. It was a close call but the decision was reached and has been endorsed.

There'll be some inconveniences, no doubt, but these are not major for the great majority of people. Can we now just get on with making the best of the new opportunities we're presented with please? Whether we were Leavers or Remainers, can we all agree that we want the best for the UK while also wanting to retain a cordial and mutually beneficial relationship with our EU neighbours? This is a perfectly feasible position to take.

I really hate the culture war that's grown up around the EU debate, and am sick and tired of being called 'a thick racist' (and worse). I'm as big a Europhile as anyone. I can assure people that it's perfectly possible to love Europe, and love being European, without approving the thing that the EU has turned into. For the record I voted pro-EEC in 1975 and was always happy with the pre-1992 set-up and much of the pre-2004-Expansion. But even EU fans should acknowledge that the EU has turned into something quite different from the arrangement we entered in 1973, and it was quite fair to ask the UK population if they still approved of membership.

My hope is that we can at least give the new arrangement a chance. Let's review it again in 10 years or so, but for now, let's pull together and make it a success for all -- both UK and EU.
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  #125  
Old 03.01.2021, 13:44
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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As far as university goes outside of language students there's not much interest to be honest.

what a narrow view, and not my experience at all as a 6th Form specialist. Many of the students I have known to go on to spend 1 year abroad with Erasmus were not 'mere language students' - but were studying totally unrelated Degrees, like Engineering, Medicine, Accounting, and so many more - and other combined Degree- where reaching fluency during that year truly gave me a professional edge with jobs, like International Accounting + language/s, International Business + language/s, International Law + language/s, design, fashion, and so many more. And those students were not from posh background nor academic families, on the whole.
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  #126  
Old 03.01.2021, 13:55
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

Frankly its pretty disingenuous to assume that the majority of students who 'do well at University' in the UK
are toffs from posh, upper class backgrounds.

It might have been true in Jacob Rees-Moggs era but Britain's in the 21st century now, although following
Brexit its open to interpretation which era Britain belongs to now.
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  #127  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:01
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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what a narrow view, and not my experience at all as a 6th Form specialist. Many of the students I have known to go on to spend 1 year abroad with Erasmus were not 'mere language students' - but were studying totally unrelated Degrees, like Engineering, Medicine, Accounting, and so many more - and other combined Degree- where reaching fluency during that year truly gave me a professional edge with jobs, like International Accounting + language/s, International Business + language/s, International Law + language/s, design, fashion, and so many more. And those students were not from posh background nor academic families, on the whole.
The statistics don't lie. Last year data is available 0.5% of students. I'm willing to bet that an absolute majority have a language as part of their degree given that language students tend to (must?) travel abroad for a year.

In any case, we are putting in place a cheaper scheme that allows travel to anywhere, without the "little Europe" mindset. How could anyone be against that? They can still go to Europe. But they can also go to China or the US.

The reality is most British students were being failed by the scheme as it didn't cover the places they want to go - which is the Anglosphere (we sadly aren't good at languages).
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  #128  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:03
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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The statistics don't lie. Last year data is available 0.5% of students. I'm willing to be absolute majority have a language as part of their degree.

In any case, we are putting in place a cheaper scheme that allows travel to anywhere, without the "little Europe" mindset.
So back to the Empire - Ooops sorry I mean the Commonwealth, at least they speak English there !!
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  #129  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:05
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

It's a huge shame that the very narrow, specialised A'Level System, means that so many excellent linguists never go on to study languages post 16, at school. I have known so many of our best linguists having to drop either language for A Level, as they had to take very specific subjects to go on to study medicine, or veterinary medicine, sciences and all sorts. Many chose to continue the study of language in any way they could post A'Level- because they loved foreign language/s, were so good at it, and saw said languages as the door to travel later with their profession.

Of course in Switzeland or most European countries, all students continue the study of at least 2 foreign languages to the Bac/Matu. My point was re your comment that Erasmus had no value for anyone who was only studying languages.
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  #130  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:09
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Frankly its pretty disingenuous to assume that the majority of students who 'do well at University' in the UK
are toffs from posh, upper class backgrounds.

It might have been true in Jacob Rees-Moggs era but Britain's in the 21st century now, although following
Brexit its open to interpretation which era Britain belongs to now.
When I was at Oxford in 2007, the college was still c. 50% independent school. State sector was mixed between comprehensive and grammar school kids.
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  #131  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:13
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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When I was at Oxford in 2007, the college was still c. 50% independent school. State sector was mixed between comprehensive and grammar school kids.
Yes my father & grandparents loved the 'Good Old Days as well' when everyone knew their place, I'm
sure they tried to keep it alive as long as possible, as you suggest in your 2007 example.
As those were the days. Why do the Brits always love looking back on 'the olden days' ?

Maybe England has the secret formula for keeping archaic institutions alive like the House of Lords.


Last edited by John William; 03.01.2021 at 14:24.
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  #132  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:15
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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It's a huge shame that the very narrow, specialised A'Level System, means that so many excellent linguists never go on to study languages post 16, at school. I have known so many of our best linguists having to drop either language for A Level, as they had to take very specific subjects to go on to study medicine, or veterinary medicine, sciences and all sorts. Many chose to continue the study of language in any way they could post A'Level- because they loved foreign language/s, were so good at it, and saw said languages as the door to travel later with their profession.

Of course in Switzeland or most European countries, all students continue the study of at least 2 foreign languages to the Bac/Matu. My point was re your comment that Erasmus had no value for anyone who was only studying languages.
This is a really good point. I think there's value in offering a broader based curriculum to post 16 students. At the same time, there's probably also value in offering a narrower but deeper curriculum to European students. Everyone is different.

From my own perspective A levels were right for me. I did Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology at A level - and I always knew that science was what I was passionate about. Even at 13 and 14 I found e.g. English literature, History etc. a real bore - and wouldn't have enjoyed it benefited from taking it further.
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  #133  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:15
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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Yes my father & grandparents loved the 'Good Old Days as well' when everyone knew their place.

Yes those were the days. Why do the Brits always love looking back on the 'olden days' ??


2007 is hardly the dark ages!
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  #134  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:18
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

BJ on Andrew Marr:
“We can have free ports now”
Andrew: we could already do that in the EU, there are 80 free ports in the EU
“We can ban pulse trawlers”
Andrew: we could already do that in the EU, the french have done it
Seems even the pm can’t explain any benefits of leaving the EU


oh and we have cancelled the tax on sanitary products - yes, Scotland did that a long time ago. And on, and on ...
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  #135  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:26
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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2007 is hardly the dark ages!
No but they were successful in keeping such archaic practices & institutions alive like the House of Lords.
Maybe Brexit is the last hurrah to the 'olden days' before they get engulfed by WOKE.

Last edited by John William; 03.01.2021 at 14:42.
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  #136  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:30
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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BJ on Andrew Marr:
“We can have free ports now”
Andrew: we could already do that in the EU, there are 80 free ports in the EU
“We can ban pulse trawlers”
Andrew: we could already do that in the EU, the french have done it
Seems even the pm can’t explain any benefits of leaving the EU


oh and we have cancelled the tax on sanitary products - yes, Scotland did that a long time ago. And on, and on ...
To be fair, this is Boris v Andrew Marr. Boris would lose the argument even if he was arguing the world is round.
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  #137  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:52
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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This is a really good point. I think there's value in offering a broader based curriculum to post 16 students. At the same time, there's probably also value in offering a narrower but deeper curriculum to European students. Everyone is different.

From my own perspective A levels were right for me. I did Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology at A level - and I always knew that science was what I was passionate about. Even at 13 and 14 I found e.g. English literature, History etc. a real bore - and wouldn't have enjoyed it benefited from taking it further.
I always feel sad that even at O level the choices, and to be fair the way the subjects were taught, led me away from some subjects which in later life have become great areas of interest. I like to hope that teaching methods and curriculums have improved to make some subjects less like the "hard work, boring, useless" that they appeared to me at the time.

I didn't stay at school for A levels (did some later in evening classes, after an OND, so I caught up eventually) but had I done so it would most likely have been science and maths to the exclusion of anything related to arts or humanities. I don't understand why focussing on A levels means that you can't also dip a metaphorical finger in other pies of history.

I think that later (after my school age, I mean) it became more common for students to also do an A level in "General Studies" which presumably should have helped give a more general grounding. How did that work out in practice?
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  #138  
Old 03.01.2021, 14:58
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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oh and we have cancelled the tax on sanitary products - yes, Scotland did that a long time ago. And on, and on ...
I'll correct this for you.

Scotland provides FREE sanitary products, funded entirely by the tax payer.
England has removed the vat on those products, which was not possible while in the EU.
Here it is on the beloved BBC news website.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...itics-51629880


"Since 2001, VAT has been charged on period products at a rate of 5% in the UK, with EU rules meaning this "tampon tax" could not be abolished or reduced any further."
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  #139  
Old 03.01.2021, 15:05
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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In any case, we are putting in place a cheaper scheme that allows travel to anywhere, without the "little Europe" mindset. How could anyone be against that? They can still go to Europe. But they can also go to China or the US.
The average ERASMUS student has the option of cheap EasyJet, Ryanair, Eurostar etc.. travel to see their family during term breaks but if you're out in China, Australia or US the average student is probably only seeing their families once a year if they're lucky.

This was all about cost but I don't think you can beat the value of ERASMUS with some headline grabbing International scheme that will probably only benefit the more well off students who can plug the financial gap.
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  #140  
Old 03.01.2021, 16:04
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Re: how many think Johnson has done a good job with The Deal?

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I think that later (after my school age, I mean) it became more common for students to also do an A level in "General Studies" which presumably should have helped give a more general grounding. How did that work out in practice?
I did an A’level in ‘General studies’ and I think we were probably at school at around the same time.
It wasn’t a proper A’ level course as such, we just had a few ‘general’ lessons during the year and sat the exam at the same time as all the other A’ levels.
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