Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #241  
Old 13.01.2021, 12:36
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 1,713
Groaned at 21 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,059 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Donald Trump is finished anyway and has been for a month or so. He'll be 78 by 2024 so there's almost zero chance he would run in that election. This is why all this talk of the 25th amendment and impeachment are just theatre.

Trumpism and its followers however isn't finished and the more social media and tech tries to silence them the greater the devotion to the cause will become.
Most of people ensure problems are finished. It's not OK to turn your back after you thought you knocked out someone, deceit is part of humans. Trump playing dead could be just theater And not only humans, even the spiders in my flat are intelligent enough to play dead and wait for me to go away and then run for their lives.

TC, do you have any proof the cancelling of Trump is not an inside job from other Republicans? Trump served the purpose of winning back on 2016, today he lost the election and he's damaging the Republican brand and companies across the US, so not useful anymore. Why not make a few calls and ask some acquaintances to block him. People will go against the crazy liberals, so no worries. The swamp Trump promised to drain, may be just swallowing him. Once you consider a thing can be theater......everything can be theater.

The face of twitter may be a guy posing as left, liberal or whatever you want to call it, but check the owners, 73% of institutional ownership. World-known lefties such as Vanguard, Morgan Stanley , Blackrock and State Street own 30% of twitter https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activi...ional-holdings I have big troubles understanding the animosity against the tech people that think they're above the law, after you see who owns them.

Last edited by Axa; 13.01.2021 at 12:53. Reason: added twitter institutional ownership numbers
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 13.01.2021, 12:50
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 10,859
Groaned at 229 Times in 193 Posts
Thanked 22,677 Times in 9,622 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Most of people ensure problems are finished. It's not OK to turn your back after you thought you knocked out someone, deceit is part of humans. Trump playing dead could be just theater And not only humans, even the spiders in my flat are intelligent enough to play dead and wait for me to go away and then run for their lives.
Trump is not playing dead. Did you see his speech in Texas yesterday?

Quote:
View Post
TC, do you have any proof the cancelling of Trump is not an inside job from other Republicans? Trump served the purpose of winning back on 2016, today he lost the election and he's damaging the Republican brand and companies across the US, so not useful anymore.
a bit tinfoil hat, no?

There were parts of the GOP who never accepted Trump.

Was that all part of the ploy as well?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #243  
Old 13.01.2021, 12:55
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,544
Groaned at 121 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 6,168 Times in 3,452 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Donald Trump is finished anyway and has been for a month or so. He'll be 78 by 2024 so there's almost zero chance he would run in that election. This is why all this talk of the 25th amendment and impeachment are just theatre.

Trumpism and its followers however isn't finished and the more social media and tech tries to silence them the greater the devotion to the cause will become.
Itís all masquerade. I see itís the way of manipulating the stock market and for those who were against big techs to provide another argument to voice and emphasize their dissatisfaction.
Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 13.01.2021, 17:40
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 923
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,145 Times in 1,029 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Most of people ensure problems are finished. It's not OK to turn your back after you thought you knocked out someone, deceit is part of humans. Trump playing dead could be just theater And not only humans, even the spiders in my flat are intelligent enough to play dead and wait for me to go away and then run for their lives.

TC, do you have any proof the cancelling of Trump is not an inside job from other Republicans? Trump served the purpose of winning back on 2016, today he lost the election and he's damaging the Republican brand and companies across the US, so not useful anymore. Why not make a few calls and ask some acquaintances to block him. People will go against the crazy liberals, so no worries. The swamp Trump promised to drain, may be just swallowing him. Once you consider a thing can be theater......everything can be theater.

The face of twitter may be a guy posing as left, liberal or whatever you want to call it, but check the owners, 73% of institutional ownership. World-known lefties such as Vanguard, Morgan Stanley , Blackrock and State Street own 30% of twitter https://www.nasdaq.com/market-activi...ional-holdings I have big troubles understanding the animosity against the tech people that think they're above the law, after you see who owns them.
As amogles has already alluded too, whilst it's not beyond the realms of possibility for this to be some sort of conspiracy, the likelihood is that it isn't. The behaviour of Big Tech, particularly over the past 4 years, the disproportionate action against those on the political right, the number of whistleblowers and disgruntled employees alleging censorship at the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Google all point to Big Tech overreach.

This didn't begin and end with Donald Trump, but rather the culmination of a process that's been going on for a long time.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #245  
Old 13.01.2021, 20:34
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,762
Groaned at 80 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 17,968 Times in 8,048 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
How is a legal channel going to detect how you have voted?

Maybe they can trawl your facebook profile for any comments, or maybe they can pay the likes of Cambridge Analytica to use an algorithm to do it for them.

Last time somebody did that, it didn't go down very well.
It's not that hard to get an idea based on public records.

A number of the rioters at the Capitol have been identified. With just a name and a state, I can make a public records request with the Secretary of State or Election Commission's office to see whether a person is registered to vote, which party (if any) they are affiliated with, and how many elections they've voted in.

Most people who register with a political party tend to vote that party, particularly those that register close to an election.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #246  
Old 13.01.2021, 21:06
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 99
Groaned at 34 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 66 Times in 44 Posts
mikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeable
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
I wonder what Trump supporters would be saying if the situation was reversed and Biden had lost the election but then denied it, convinced liberals that the election was "stolen" from him and then instigated a violent attack on the Capitol building during a Congressional session being held to confirm the election results.
Isn't this what Hillary was saying all along?
Russian interference, you remember?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank mikedragos for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at mikedragos for this post:
  #247  
Old 13.01.2021, 21:29
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 10,762
Groaned at 80 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 17,968 Times in 8,048 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Isn't this what Hillary was saying all along?
Russian interference, you remember?
Oh please.

Sure, she complained as did her supporters. But she conceded the election only a few days after it happened and made a proper concession speech. She didn't file more than 80 court cases including up to the Supreme Court. She didn't try to throw out entire states worth of votes. There was never a question that Trump would be inaugruated. No one in Congress was in danger for doing their constitutional duty.

To borrow phrasing from Pancakes, Hillary did not "instigate a violent attack on the Capitol building during a Congressional session being held to confirm the election result."
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
This user groans at 3Wishes for this post:
  #248  
Old 13.01.2021, 22:39
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 4,207
Groaned at 222 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 8,501 Times in 3,224 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
As amogles has already alluded too, whilst it's not beyond the realms of possibility for this to be some sort of conspiracy, the likelihood is that it isn't. The behaviour of Big Tech, particularly over the past 4 years, the disproportionate action against those on the political right, the number of whistleblowers and disgruntled employees alleging censorship at the likes of Twitter, Facebook and Google all point to Big Tech overreach.

This didn't begin and end with Donald Trump, but rather the culmination of a process that's been going on for a long time.
If people don't like Big Tech, don't they have the option of not using it? Particularly in the case of social media sites such as Twitter and Facebook?

I intentionally do not use social media sites such as Facebook or Twitter because I am aware of the ways in which they are designed to basically exploit people's dopamine / reward centers in their brains and what excess dopamine does to people, etc. (excess dopamine makes people aggressive).

Have people have lost the awareness that not using social media is an option? I remember when I was using FB, years ago, and it went down for a day or so, people were literally freaking out as though the world was ending.

Maybe the world would be better off if less people used social media, considering the hold it seems to have over people and the increasing divisiveness and hatred that it's generating.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #249  
Old 14.01.2021, 00:40
pilatus1's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 1,727
Groaned at 145 Times in 100 Posts
Thanked 4,662 Times in 1,836 Posts
pilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond reputepilatus1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
If people don't like Big Tech, don't they have the option of not using it? Particularly in the case of social media sites such as Twitter and Facebook?

I intentionally do not use social media sites such as Facebook or Twitter because I am aware of the ways in which they are designed to basically exploit people's dopamine / reward centers in their brains and what excess dopamine does to people, etc. (excess dopamine makes people aggressive).
You do realize the thank/groan function here on EF serves the same purpose, right?
Reply With Quote
The following 12 users would like to thank pilatus1 for this useful post:
  #250  
Old 14.01.2021, 02:27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 99
Groaned at 34 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 66 Times in 44 Posts
mikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeable
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
It's hypocritical for any Trump supporters to complain about "cancel culture." They've been trying to cancel Joe Biden and the results of an election.
You don't even remember what democrats were doing since 2016 Trump election vis-a-vis cancelling results of those elections?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank mikedragos for this useful post:
  #251  
Old 14.01.2021, 02:34
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Geneva
Posts: 99
Groaned at 34 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 66 Times in 44 Posts
mikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeablemikedragos is considered knowledgeable
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Oh please.

Sure, she complained as did her supporters. But she conceded the election only a few days after it happened and made a proper concession speech. She didn't file more than 80 court cases including up to the Supreme Court. She didn't try to throw out entire states worth of votes. There was never a question that Trump would be inaugruated. No one in Congress was in danger for doing their constitutional duty.

To borrow phrasing from Pancakes, Hillary did not "instigate a violent attack on the Capitol building during a Congressional session being held to confirm the election result."
Oh please.. and what were the reasons that lead to the first impeachment?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mikedragos for this useful post:
  #252  
Old 14.01.2021, 02:36
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: In your head
Posts: 170
Groaned at 27 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 585 Times in 198 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
You don't even remember what democrats were doing since 2016 Trump election vis-a-vis cancelling results of those elections?
Do tell.


Quote:
View Post
Oh please.. and what were the reasons that lead to the first impeachment?
Of Trump? Getting another country to investigate Biden's son(s) wasn't it?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank RufusB for this useful post:
  #253  
Old 14.01.2021, 09:10
TonyClifton's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Hopefully soon to be Aargau
Posts: 923
Groaned at 347 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 2,145 Times in 1,029 Posts
TonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond reputeTonyClifton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
If people don't like Big Tech, don't they have the option of not using it? Particularly in the case of social media sites such as Twitter and Facebook?

I intentionally do not use social media sites such as Facebook or Twitter because I am aware of the ways in which they are designed to basically exploit people's dopamine / reward centers in their brains and what excess dopamine does to people, etc. (excess dopamine makes people aggressive).

Have people have lost the awareness that not using social media is an option? I remember when I was using FB, years ago, and it went down for a day or so, people were literally freaking out as though the world was ending.

Maybe the world would be better off if less people used social media, considering the hold it seems to have over people and the increasing divisiveness and hatred that it's generating.
Social media is demonstrably addictive. Just telling people to "switch it off" likely isn't going to work anymore.

As a free marketeer, I would also normally agree with your first point. There is a big difference here though. If people don't like (or get kicked off) Twitter, they should be able to go elsewhere. However when the competition elsewhere (Parler) is attacked through the joint efforts of the Big Tech giants, then those companies are behaving as a monopoly and need treated and sanctioned as such through antitrust legislation.

Quote:
View Post
You don't even remember what democrats were doing since 2016 Trump election vis-a-vis cancelling results of those elections?
Indeed, people have VERY short memories
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank TonyClifton for this useful post:
  #254  
Old 14.01.2021, 09:50
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 4,207
Groaned at 222 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 8,501 Times in 3,224 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
You do realize the thank/groan function here on EF serves the same purpose, right?
Yes, but how many of us here are using the EF to project an online persona and to collect "followers?" How many people here invest their egos in their EF identities and post selfies for compliments, etc.? I don't think that the EF programs people to seek rewards in the form of "dopamine hits" the ways most social media sites are designed to. I do think think, though, that the EF has the ability to affect dopamine similar to social media sites, though not as strongly.

And similar to social media sites, the EF is also an option. We are not forced to use it. We are 'programmed' to use it. It's all very similar to Skinner's experiments in behavioral conditioning. It's an "operant conditioning chamber," essentially.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #255  
Old 14.01.2021, 10:02
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 756
Groaned at 41 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,363 Times in 533 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Yes, but how many of us here are using the EF to project an online persona and to collect "followers?" How many people here invest their egos in their EF identities and post selfies for compliments, etc.?
It is exactly the same. A lot of people here are heavily invested in their green/red cards and thanks/groans! I don't think I have given anyone a red card since I have been here. Even people who have serial red carded me get a pass. If I feel strongly about a post I will just reply on the forum. Even post groans I keep to minimum, around 9 groans since I joined.

Quote:
I do think think, though, that the EF has the ability to affect dopamine similar to social media sites, though not as strongly.
I disagree
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Talk to you later for this useful post:
  #256  
Old 14.01.2021, 10:42
Pancakes's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Zurich-ish
Posts: 4,207
Groaned at 222 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 8,501 Times in 3,224 Posts
Pancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond reputePancakes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
It is exactly the same. A lot of people here are heavily invested in their green/red cards and thanks/groans! I don't think I have given anyone a red card since I have been here. Even people who have serial red carded me get a pass. If I feel strongly about a post I will just reply on the forum. Even post groans I keep to minimum, around 9 groans since I joined.

I disagree
I also almost never use the groan function. It just seems really childish to me.

I agree that some people here do seem to be invested in their "EF reputations" but not to the extent that you see on social media. I think there are some fundamental differences, in terms of design, between the EF and most social media sites that cause the EF to be less of a "dopamine feedback loop" than social media sites are, but that's just my opinion on it. For one thing, we do not receive a constant influx of notifications on the EF, designed to keep us here and constantly attract our attention / program our behavior. However, both the EF and social media sites do exploit the fact that our brains perceive new information as a reward. That is why the "infinite scroll" feature exists on Facebook, for example -- put in place to keep people addicted to scrolling, because their brains process new information as a "dopamine hit."

So this is just based on my observations, etc., but I just don't think people really invest their identities into the EF as strongly as they do on social media sites, where people often project an idealized version of themselves.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pancakes for this useful post:
  #257  
Old 14.01.2021, 11:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 9,755
Groaned at 330 Times in 270 Posts
Thanked 14,128 Times in 7,279 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Yes, but how many of us here are using the EF to project an online persona and to collect "followers?" How many people here invest their egos in their EF identities and post selfies for compliments, etc.?.
I think you're wrong.

There's a lot of bragging and following some alfa of the pack.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #258  
Old 14.01.2021, 11:40
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is online now
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 1,713
Groaned at 21 Times in 21 Posts
Thanked 2,246 Times in 1,059 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
For one thing, we do not receive a constant influx of notifications on the EF, designed to keep us here and constantly attract our attention / program our behavior. However, both the EF and social media sites do exploit the fact that our brains perceive new information as a reward. That is why the "infinite scroll" feature exists on Facebook, for example -- put in place to keep people addicted to scrolling, because their brains process new information as a "dopamine hit."

So this is just based on my observations, etc., but I just don't think people really invest their identities into the EF as strongly as they do on social media sites, where people often project an idealized version of themselves.
It's clear you don't use facebook or twitter, you can disable push notifications and enjoy your lifehttps://www.facebook.com/help/103859036372845

Idealized version of oneself...how can people survive without self-deprecating humor? How?
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 14.01.2021, 12:20
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: In your head
Posts: 170
Groaned at 27 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 585 Times in 198 Posts
RufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond reputeRufusB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Social media is demonstrably addictive. Just telling people to "switch it off" likely isn't going to work anymore.

As a free marketeer, I would also normally agree with your first point. There is a big difference here though. If people don't like (or get kicked off) Twitter, they should be able to go elsewhere. However when the competition elsewhere (Parler) is attacked through the joint efforts of the Big Tech giants, then those companies are behaving as a monopoly and need treated and sanctioned as such through antitrust legislation.



Indeed, people have VERY short memories
Parler is pretty much an alt-right echo sewer, much like Reddit. They also have pretty stringent rules and regs and chuck folk off when it suits. Mostly for saying mad stuff like only women have uteruseses. Private companies.

Who are the Big Tech giants?

I'm still waiting on what the Dems did to try and cancel Trumo post 2016. Unless collectively worrying that a dangerous narcissist had just been elected to the office with the big red button counts?
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 14.01.2021, 13:14
Talk to you later's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: ZH
Posts: 756
Groaned at 41 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,363 Times in 533 Posts
Talk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond reputeTalk to you later has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Cancel Culture

Quote:
View Post
Mostly for saying mad stuff like only women have uteruseses.

Genuinely I am confused You mean female uterus, right? Why is it mad to say the obvious?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cancel Swiss flight or wait for them to cancel? ormesome Transportation/driving 135 21.09.2020 15:50
Cancel car importation AdrienBe Transportation/driving 0 06.03.2017 12:46
Liability Insurance - how to cancel? ju_zimmermann Insurance 2 10.03.2014 16:05
Modern western culture superior to any other culture ever? scribble International affairs/politics 134 07.02.2011 20:30
Cancel Swisscom subscription Duncheg TV/internet/telephone 1 09.09.2010 22:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0