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  #101  
Old 10.01.2021, 15:56
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Wonder if pornhub too has banned Trump ?
Can you imagine somebody selling his bookmarked pages?
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  #102  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:01
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Judge Brownlies verdict ensured my healthy disrespect for the judiciary was upheld.

Discriminating against a homosexual on the basis of their sexuality should (and now does) mean refusing to sell that person a regular cake, not a cake adorned with a political message they don't agree with. That's evidently discrimination based on a political view, which is not a protected characteristic in the UK.

The New Mexico case is very close to the boundary for me. I can see both sides. I don't think it's at all analogous. On balance I just about agree with the judgement.
What muddied the waters a bit is that Judge Brownlie found that the plaintiff had been discriminated against on the grounds of political opinion but only because of a form of anti-discrimination law that is unique to Northern Ireland, namely: The Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998. Section 3(1)(a) prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion. However, that legislation was drafted with the intention of safeguarding individuals against 'being treated unfavourably because of their Unionist or Nationalist views'. The Order is drafted broadly enough to encompass the harm Mr Lee complained of. In her judgment, she stated

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the defendants are entitled to continue to hold their genuine and deeply held beliefs and to manifest them but, in accordance with the law, not to manifest them in the commercial sphere if it is contrary to the rights of others.
The irony at the time was (the law changed in Jan 2020) that whilst the Northern Ireland Assembly repeatedly refused to legalise same-sex marriage, it was illegal to refuse to bake a cake in support of it!

These so-called hard cases are replete with nuances that raise many other important considerations. For example, the concepts of freedom as non-interference and freedom as non-domination. With respect to the former, individuals are free to the extent that they enjoy resilient guarantees against arbitrary interference in their choices. Whereas in the case of the latter, freedom can be undermined without interference ever being suffered at all. Others need only to have the capacity or power to arbitrarily interfere in our choices, even where that power is never used.
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  #103  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:06
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Re: Cancel Culture

22y love your radical and bias approach to ...almost everything

It's interesting to read you ,listing Trump's crimes , yet, why dont you apply the same logic to all the politics.. For ex. somehow Trumps ranting is so bad.. But the whole "Bengazi" operation and the death of John Christopher Stevens, then some 30k Hilary C emails deleted by accident..... Bombing for years Syria selling weapons to both sides etc etc ...
Where are we with Podesta case..? hear about that? or that's something we shouldnt be thinking about but but Trump saying "there was a fraud" that's so bad. Yet, someone else has hijacked the justice system after 2016 for some 2y and more to prove how the bad russians elected Trump , tons of money were spent on that alone , to impeach and finally to have the case dropped
I mean, do you see how ridiculous all this is ?

In the mean time, we could go even a bit further and think who got censored or held responsible for the death of David Kelly? Who, just like that, the morning when he was supposed to present the case in front of the british parliament decided to suicide himself near his house ?

I'm only saying this, to show how the way we think , and what we think is bad or good , morally acceptable or not is been fabricated and diffused as information of what is > good or >bad , hence the fact how everyone hates Trump and he's responsable for the evil in the world, is destroying democracy and so on ?? so yes, I dont think this is really your opinion since this is what the whole media has pre-fabricated as "reality" and people are only digesting it a bit and then sort of convince themselves how they've come up with this or that as an opinion .
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  #104  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:12
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Re: Cancel Culture

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You rail against "PC" practices and policies, but frankly I can't think of anything much more politically correct than giving someone a pass for anything they say because "it's just their alternative view". No, in a functioning society people can't spew any crap they like and a) not be subject to criticism and b) not be held to account.
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  #105  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:13
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Re: Cancel Culture

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What muddied the waters a bit is that Judge Brownlie found that the plaintiff had been discriminated against on the grounds of political opinion but only because of a form of anti-discrimination law that is unique to Northern Ireland, namely: The Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998. Section 3(1)(a) prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religious belief or political opinion. However, that legislation was drafted with the intention of safeguarding individuals against 'being treated unfavourably because of their Unionist or Nationalist views'. The Order is drafted broadly enough to encompass the harm Mr Lee complained of. In her judgment, she stated



The irony at the time was (the law changed in Jan 2020) that whilst the Northern Ireland Assembly repeatedly refused to legalise same-sex marriage, it was illegal to refuse to bake a cake in support of it!

These so-called hard cases are replete with nuances that raise many other important considerations. For example, the concepts of freedom as non-interference and freedom as non-domination. With respect to the former, individuals are free to the extent that they enjoy resilient guarantees against arbitrary interference in their choices. Whereas in the case of the latter, freedom can be undermined without interference ever being suffered at all. Others need only to have the capacity or power to arbitrarily interfere in our choices, even where that power is never used.
I see a bigly problem in 'if you don't actively and publicly agree/condemn with us we consider you an enemy'. And this is happening massively. It's a cognitive issue, just like to be able to identify the difference and consequences of your two examples of "freedoms".
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  #106  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:29
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Re: Cancel Culture

If we apply that logic "cancel culture" and the theory "they're a private business they can do whatever they want ifyou're not happy then bye" , can be applied the other way around ??

Then Trump, or whoever the president is, can shut down businesses , let's say these ones "social platforms,forums,communication" ? He could find hundreds of excuses to do that, " on your platform there are pedofiles communicating, racist posting memes, not paying taxes, and so on " ?

The point is, arbitrary decisions are just inacceptable. So either way it is wrong.

If Twitter ,FB ,yt , wanted to ban Trump because he's a danger to the society then collect the information go to the tribunal illico presto , and let a panel of judges decide .
?
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  #107  
Old 10.01.2021, 16:38
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Re: Cancel Culture

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I see a bigly problem in 'if you don't actively and publicly agree/condemn with us we consider you an enemy'. And this is happening massively. It's a cognitive issue, just like to be able to identify the difference and consequences of your two examples of "freedoms".
That's EXACTLY what Trump does and how he was using Twitter -- to bully, threaten and demonize anyone and everyone who disagreed with him or who he disagreed with.
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  #108  
Old 10.01.2021, 17:04
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Re: Cancel Culture

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I see a bigly problem in 'if you don't actively and publicly agree/condemn with us we consider you an enemy'. And this is happening massively. It's a cognitive issue, just like to be able to identify the difference and consequences of your two examples of "freedoms".
1. There have been many times when left-wing posters have attacked me for not being left enough. However, that is their right.

2. There have been many times when right-wing posters have reacted negatively to my posts, but that is their right.

3. Freedom, to me, means living in a society where I can speak my mind on most things. However, a civil society should not allow a person to spread hate speech or incite crime without accountability. There are just too many followers who take those words seriously.

I still remember Sarah Palin using crossbow targets with faces of her opposing candidates. One of those candidates was shot and seriously injured. Sarah went on to say that was not her intention, which begs the question why she would then post it.

Edit: Here's an interesting editorial on the above incident: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ooting/342714/
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  #109  
Old 10.01.2021, 17:12
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Re: Cancel Culture

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But we will never know whether Trumps alligations of voter fraud were true, as his complaints were dismissed outright without proper investigation.
There were more than 60 court cases, including all the way to the Supreme Court, brought by Trump and his allies. Not one proved any widespread fraud and almost all were dismissed because there wasn't any evidence produced.

You could argue that an investigation would produce evidence. Canvassing is the process by which counties and states verify their results are accurate. In a sense, that's an investigation. In the State of Georgia, the Republican Secretary of State ordered their statewide canvass to be a hand recount of the results for the presidential race. No evidence of widespread fraud was found and the results were barely changed by the canvass. The state then proceeded with a standard recount as allowed by state law, and again did not turn up anything noteworthy.

If there was fraud on such a scale, local election officials would be screaming from the rooftops and have truckloads of evidence. I do remember one case clearly. A Trump supporter forged his deceased mother's signature on an absentee ballot application and was charged with fraud.

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...As far as violence and insurrection, why do Kamala Harris, Eric Holder and many others still have twitter accounts when they clearly incited violence and unrest during the summer.
Please quote some of their twitter posts where these individuals incite violence. Promoting peaceful protests, yes. But encouraging people to be strong, take back the government, trial by combat, etc.? I doubt it.

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...Cant believe how easily we accept censorship ... and no they're not just private companies so they can do whatever they want . It doesnt work like that.
Ok then how does it work? They are private companies with their own T&Cs. They get to decide who violated the T&Cs, even if you or I disagree with what the T&Cs are or how they're applied.
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  #110  
Old 10.01.2021, 17:31
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Re: Cancel Culture

There’s serious discussion ongoing outside of the EF’s perimeters:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55609903

Besides that Chewbacca has been charged which is a good thing:
'QAnon Shaman' Jake Angeli charged over pro-Trump riots https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55606044

The law and order will be restored and hopefully people, that were not directly affected (families of those 5 deceased come to mind) can leave behind the events from last week and find the way to move forward with the new presidency.
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  #111  
Old 10.01.2021, 17:35
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Re: Cancel Culture

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I see a bigly problem in 'if you don't actively and publicly agree/condemn with us we consider you an enemy'. And this is happening massively. It's a cognitive issue, just like to be able to identify the difference and consequences of your two examples of "freedoms".
Yes, thats one problem that happens on both, radical left and right, but thats not the point that 22y was making, as far as I understood.

There are certain action, that have to be condemned from every functioning member in a functional society. Just out of a sense of common sense, risk/probability assesment and and some basic knowlgedge of how democratic processes are supposed to work.
There's just no grey area there and for once I'm with Chuff, some BS can't be tolerated or left unchecked.
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  #112  
Old 10.01.2021, 17:38
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Re: Cancel Culture

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There’s serious discussion ongoing outside of the EF’s perimeters:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55609903
Isn't that strange though? I thought Republicans were the party of deregulation!
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  #113  
Old 10.01.2021, 18:54
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Re: Cancel Culture

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And so, with Facebook, Twitter deleting Trump... What are your thoughts about the media censoring those who can contribute?

I never voted for Trump in either election; I am decidedly not a fan. That said, I am worried about media censorship; now it looks as though Google and Apple are following suit in barring some sites from using their platform. Anyone else concerned about this?
When you sign up to use the services of private companies, you agree to abide by their terms and conditions. Trump has gone against those T&C repeatedly. It's not "cancel culture", it's simply the application of the terms that he mistakenly thought he didn't need to stick to.
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  #114  
Old 10.01.2021, 18:59
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Re: Cancel Culture

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When you sign up to use the services of private companies, you agree to abide by their terms and conditions. Trump has gone against those T&C repeatedly. It's not "cancel culture", it's simply the application of the terms that he mistakenly thought he didn't need to stick to.
Another fine example of his delusional sense of entitlement.

This was his recent statement regarding his Twitter ban:

"Twitter is not about FREE SPEECH. They are all about promoting a Radical Left platform where some of the most vicious people in the world are allowed to speak freely. "

Can anyone spot the contradiction and hypocrisy?
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  #115  
Old 10.01.2021, 18:59
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Re: Cancel Culture

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When you sign up to use the services of private companies, you agree to abide by their terms and conditions. Trump has gone against those T&C repeatedly. It's not "cancel culture", it's simply the application of the terms that he mistakenly thought he didn't need to stick to.
Then why didn't Twitter or Facebook ban him before, as he violated the T&C repeatedly?
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  #116  
Old 10.01.2021, 19:01
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Then why didn't Twitter or Facebook ban him before, as he violated the T&C repeatedly?
At that point, his lies hadn't yet caused the Capitol building to be stormed by thousands of crazy, violent people during a Congressional session, causing US politicians to be evacuated to safety and a police officer to be bludgeoned to death.
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  #117  
Old 10.01.2021, 19:02
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Then why didn't Twitter or Facebook ban him before, as he violated the T&C repeatedly?
Because he was President, plain and simple. They should have closed his ordinary account when he became President so he could only use the Presidential one - that would probably have put him on the impeachment road long before they finally did it, given the things he's tweeted over the years.
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  #118  
Old 10.01.2021, 19:14
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Because he was President, plain and simple. They should have closed his ordinary account when he became President so he could only use the Presidential one - that would probably have put him on the impeachment road long before they finally did it, given the things he's tweeted over the years.
I have to agree... it was madness to let him use his personal account to tweet without restriction while he was president. If they had shut that down, maybe things would have been a little different.
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  #119  
Old 10.01.2021, 19:15
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Because he was President, plain and simple. They should have closed his ordinary account when he became President so he could only use the Presidential one - that would probably have put him on the impeachment road long before they finally did it, given the things he's tweeted over the years.
Although you'd like to think that he would have asserted some self-control and stopped using his own account whilst president - without being asked or forced to do so.
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  #120  
Old 10.01.2021, 19:31
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Re: Cancel Culture

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Right. I don't think that all the uncomfortable truth potentially "recruits jihadists".

This idea of grown ups who need to be shielded from data that somebody elses controls...because there are "impressionable, feeble minds out there"? How have we survived the last 20 years of such dangerous internet world? Looks like people need to be more exposed to reality, not less, if their 1st reflex is to get their opponent cancelled. Will it take another 10 years before people mature out of groupthink? Can they get together without being policed?

You push people to dissent and undeground, you know nothing anymore about their priorities, you lose traceability, you create sanitized world where people are no longer trusted and they are reported and cancelled. Apple, Google, You tube, FB, reddit, Twitter are losing big time on this - in the long run. It might be a fake wonderful world with zero credibility. PC policies that everybody likes because they make everyone feel moral, are totally abused, but being even more PC isn't gong to fix this abuse. China is one big PC group think, are people happy and free? People not needing to be validated in the make believe PC world will fix the abuse that PC thinking creates. Make space for others, tolerate other opinions.



Absolutely.

If DT is pushed out by extreme measures of biased media and people who cannot stand opposing views, it stinks. It will create far bigger conflict and a long one.

Let's tread carefully when people label their opponents trolls and liars instead of focusing on the issues in debates. These opponents do not deserve to be (perma)banned just because people get irritated that there is somebody with consistent view that differs.

Thanks, terri - this is a good thread.

I really don't think you understand the issue. It's not a case of "group think" but of inciting crimes. Trump repeatedly posted statements that were untrue - lots of his tweets prior to his banning were underscored by a Twitter warning/disclaimer. He wasn't pushed out. He broke terms and conditions and therefore was barred from the platform.

It's nothing to do with political correctness either. China isn't a Pc situation, it's a communist country with, essentially, a country wide intranet. The world is seen througha government sanctioned filter. Not the same thing as (i think) you are saying.


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Yeah ok, but you’re conflating “opposing views” with encouraging violence. It goes beyond irritation. If it leads to death, injury, and commission of illegal acts it is beyond a difference of opinion. I feel you’re making DT into a victim of bias. He is not.
This exactly. His hubris and desire for absolute power did this. He lost the election and cannot bear it.

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People seem to be conflating the medium and the message here. Twitter didn’t “cancel” Trump. They kicked him for repeated violations of their policies. As they have done for others on all sides of the political landscape.

He’s still free to spout drivel, he just doesn’t have the borrowed megaphone any more.
And this.

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Another thing to consider is the precedent this sets. It was funny when Alex Jones was banned, but this week saw YouTube ban TalkRadio's YouTube Channel, an Ofcom regulated broadcaster.

If the President can be "cancelled" then anyone can be. We've already seen how the left will turn on each other, look at the treatment of JK Rowling, or how the Labour party under Jeremy Corbyn operated.
JK Rowling was piled on because a very vocal minority didn't like the biological truths she was stating. Lies were told about her. Not quite the same.

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What a load of absolute bullshit.

You rail against "PC" practices and policies, but frankly I can't think of anything much more politically correct than giving someone a pass for anything they say because "it's just their alternative view". No, in a functioning society people can't spew any crap they like and a) not be subject to criticism and b) not be held to account.

Trump claiming, completely without evidence, that fraud was committed and the election stolen is not an "alternative view". It is, in fact, fraud of its own making.

Trump claiming that the courts (presided over by judges, many of whom HE appointed) are wrong and fraudulent is not an "alternative view". It's more lies and bullshit.

Trump fomenting "revolution", rioting and a pathetic, symbolic coup d'état is not an "alternative view". It's a Federal crime and an impeachable offence.

I could go on...

Trump is a troll and a liar. He needed to have his mouthpiece removed—and a lot more besides.
Wholly agree.

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I see a bigly problem in 'if you don't actively and publicly agree/condemn with us we consider you an enemy'. And this is happening massively. It's a cognitive issue, just like to be able to identify the difference and consequences of your two examples of "freedoms".
It's not a "cognitive issue ", it's a human nature group pile on issue. That's how social media works. It's more contentious than IRl because folk feel brave when anonymised and behind a keyboard.

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That's EXACTLY what Trump does and how he was using Twitter -- to bully, threaten and demonize anyone and everyone who disagreed with him or who he disagreed with.
Absolutely. His is the POTUS: he should not be behaving like a spoiled 11 year old.

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When you sign up to use the services of private companies, you agree to abide by their terms and conditions. Trump has gone against those T&C repeatedly. It's not "cancel culture", it's simply the application of the terms that he mistakenly thought he didn't need to stick to.
Entirely so.

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Then why didn't Twitter or Facebook ban him before, as he violated the T&C repeatedly?
Because he's the president. As Medea says below:


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Because he was President, plain and simple. They should have closed his ordinary account when he became President so he could only use the Presidential one - that would probably have put him on the impeachment road long before they finally did it, given the things he's tweeted over the years.

Last edited by RufusB; 10.01.2021 at 19:47.
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