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  #21  
Old 24.01.2021, 11:05
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Looks like many things written i the US contitution are just words. I like that here things don't have to be written in any charts and are still respected, because of history and common sense that people agree on on their own account.
For many, they are not just words and it's naive for anyone to think otherwise.
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Old 24.01.2021, 11:15
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Looks like many things written i the US contitution are just words. I like that here things don't have to be written in any charts and are still respected, because of history and common sense that people agree on on their own account.
I think that when you place the Constitution in the context of time and place, it has meaning. Like any historical document. Whatís more problematic is that itís not read carefully with an awareness of this context.
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  #23  
Old 24.01.2021, 11:19
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I think that when you place the Constitution in the context of time and place, it has meaning.
Of course it does. But to me the number of people who either interpret it differently, disrespect it or consider it useless is high there, in my experience. It feels a whole lot better to live in a community where things don't need to be written down or reminded, re-interpreted, etc. I am not sure if it is a continent thing or just CH.
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  #24  
Old 24.01.2021, 11:36
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I think that when you place the Constitution in the context of time and place, it has meaning. Like any historical document. What’s more problematic is that it’s not read carefully with an awareness of this context.
I would love to see the Constitution ratified by taking out all references to God and deleting the right to bear arms. But that will never happen.
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Old 24.01.2021, 11:37
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Looks like many things written in the US contitution are just words.
Those 'just words' are the fundamental basis of all US law, the building blocks of American society.

Granted, too many today lack an understanding of constitutional law or even the basics of civics and treat those 'just words' as nothing more than slogans. But doing so displays not only a fundmental ignorance of American democracy but also a mindset incompatible with it.

Thank doG for those 'just words' - they are our last line of defense against the (current, but also historical) tendency to slide into authoritarianism.
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Old 24.01.2021, 11:42
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Those 'just words' are the fundamental basis of all US law, the building blocks of American society.

Granted, too many today lack an understanding of constitutional law or even the basics of civics and treat those 'just words' as nothing more than slogans. But doing so displays not only a fundmental ignorance of American democracy but also a mindset incompatible with it.

Thank doG for those 'just words' - ..
I don't think evangelical extremists or fundamentalists show a mindset compatible with democracy if they prevent themselves or others from respecting the constitution.

Last edited by MusicChick; 24.01.2021 at 14:32.
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  #27  
Old 24.01.2021, 11:46
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Looks like many things written in the US contitution are just words to them. I like that here things don't have to be written in any charts and are still respected, because of history and common sense that people agree on on their own account.
Thing that I have learned about common sense is that it isnīt common sense.
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  #28  
Old 24.01.2021, 12:33
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

These people scare the **** out of me- in some ways even more than non religious alt right.

But it is crazy in this day and age, that no atheist or humanist could become President, and no-one born in the USA. Could be a minimum number of years from acquiring USA citizenship- OK- but the idea that someone could move to USA with parents as a young child, would not be allowed to become President after acquiring citizenship and living there for 20, 30, 40 , 50 years- is crazy. Are there any other country where this is the case?.
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  #29  
Old 24.01.2021, 12:40
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I would love to see the Constitution ratified by taking out all references to God and deleting the right to bear arms. But that will never happen.
Fun fact: God or the divine is not mentioned at all in the U.S. Constitution, unless you count the reference to the "year of our Lord". It's in every state constitution though.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-constitution/

In the Declaration of Independence, God or the divine is mentioned four times
https://www.quora.com/How-many-times...f-Independence

Dozens of nations include references to God or the divine in their constitutions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consti...erences_to_God
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  #30  
Old 24.01.2021, 12:47
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I don't think they're fringe. That's what is worrying. The prosperity teachers are closely aligned with groups like the New Aposotolic Reformation (NAR), who teach that the church must make sure it has influence (and therefore power) in all areas of American life. For that reason the leaders persuage their followers to give generously to political campaigns such as Trump. By getting their churches to give money, they gain political power.

I'm a Christian. The thought of living in such a theocracy - or even the US becoming one - scares me.
I didn't know about NAR, thanks. Yes, I agree, the thought of living in a theocracy is scary.
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  #31  
Old 24.01.2021, 12:48
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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These people scare the **** out of me- in some ways even more than non religious alt right.

But it is crazy in this day and age, that no atheist or humanist could become President, and no-one born in the USA. Could be a minimum number of years from acquiring USA citizenship- OK- but the idea that someone could move to USA with parents as a young child, would not be allowed to become President after acquiring citizenship and living there for 20, 30, 40 , 50 years- is crazy. Are there any other country where this is the case?.
Just a bit of pedantry:

There is absolutely nothing in the US constitution that says an athesist or humanist cannot become president. Religion, or lack of it, are not qualifying criteria for the presidency.

US society tends towards valuing religion (even if not actively practicing it) however, and people tend to vote with that in mind. Or at least campaign managers think that people tend to vote with that in mind, which is something altogether different.

So currently the chances of being elected as a professed atheist are not great today - same as if one held any other view that falls outside the mainstream.

(Lots of politicians only 'found religion' on the campaign trail... )


That the president must be 'a natural born citizen' is, however, indeed a requirement laid out in the constitution. As is age, and length of residency.

Here is Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

https://constitution.congress.gov/br...ALDE_00001124/

This could be changed by a consitutional amendment. However, a constitutional ammendment is a pretty tough hill to climb, and likely would not happen any time soon.
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  #32  
Old 24.01.2021, 13:20
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

Thanks, really interesting.

Just thinking of my OH, born in Cape Town, but he has no memory of his erly childhood there and was 2 when they moved to UK. There, he could have held any office he would have wanted, but not in the USA. He is British through and through, the thought he could not hold office due to the fact he just happened to be born elsewhere, seems crazy to me.
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  #33  
Old 24.01.2021, 13:38
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Thanks, really interesting.

Just thinking of my OH, born in Cape Town, but he has no memory of his erly childhood there and was 2 when they moved to UK. There, he could have held any office he would have wanted, but not in the USA. He is British through and through, the thought he could not hold office due to the fact he just happened to be born elsewhere, seems crazy to me.
Natural born citizen is a funny thing in terms of the U.S. constitution. For one thing, it's not actually defined in the constitution. Two interesting case studies:
  • Born on U.S. soil, whether in the actual 50 states or one of the U.S. territories. Example: John McCain, born in Panama which at the time was a U.S. territory. Both parents were U.S. citizens.
  • Born abroad to at least one citizen parent (some special rules so I won't get into the minutae). Example: Ted Cruz, born in Canada and thus Canadian by birth, but also American since his mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of birth. He has since renounced Canadian, because it doesn't look great that you want to be president of the USA and still hold the nationality of a second country.
In each of the above cases it was fairly clear to most legal scholars that these individuals qualified as natural born citizens. Congress even passed a resolution regarding McCain to try and clear it up.
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  #34  
Old 24.01.2021, 13:46
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

That born in the US rule isnít actually followed. Ted Cruz was born in Calgary, John McCain was born in Panama (at the time an occupied territory), Barak Obama was born in Hawaii (another occupied territory).

All three of them were presidential candidates.
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Old 24.01.2021, 13:49
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

Fascinating, thanks.

I could never see why it 'does not look good' to have 2 nationalities, and that it is considered by many as a conflict of values/priorities.

I would never renounce either of my nationalities- they are both totally part of me.

Ignazio Cassis recently gave up his Italian Nationality when he was elected, as he saw it as a 'conflict'. Why? Lorenzo Quadri, from the Lega dei Ticinesi, a political party in the Italian-speaking canton of Ticino, put forward a motion to have this made law. He thinks Federal Councillors, parliamentarians and diplomats should hold only Swiss nationality. Some members of the Swiss People’s Party (UDC/SVP) agree. Thank goodness this was rejected.
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  #36  
Old 24.01.2021, 14:02
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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That born in the US rule isn’t actually followed. Ted Cruz was born in Calgary, John McCain was born in Panama (at the time an occupied territory), Barak Obama was born in Hawaii (another occupied territory).

All three of them were presidential candidates.


Again a bit of pedantry:

Hawaii became a state in 1959.
Obama was born in 1961.


For McCain and Cruz, see 3W's post above.

Last edited by meloncollie; 24.01.2021 at 14:24. Reason: removed double quote
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  #37  
Old 24.01.2021, 14:09
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Again a bit of pedantry:

Hawaii became a state in 1959.
Obama was born in 1961.


For McCain and Cruz, see 3W's post above.
Many Hawaiians believe they were conquered by the US and the vote for statehood was rejected by the native minority, but agreed by immigrants, mostly military.
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  #38  
Old 24.01.2021, 14:27
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Thing that I have learned about common sense is that it isnīt common sense.
Sure. But whether your common sense respects the constitution (wherever you live) will matter quite a lot. So, there's not much leeway for any fancy relativism.
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  #39  
Old 24.01.2021, 14:59
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Fascinating, thanks.

I could never see why it 'does not look good' to have 2 nationalities, and that it is considered by many as a conflict of values/priorities.

I would never renounce either of my nationalities- they are both totally part of me.

Ignazio Cassis recently gave up his Italian Nationality when he was elected, as he saw it as a 'conflict'. Why? Lorenzo Quadri, from the Lega dei Ticinesi, a political party in the Italian-speaking canton of Ticino, put forward a motion to have this made law. He thinks Federal Councillors, parliamentarians and diplomats should hold only Swiss nationality. Some members of the Swiss Peopleís Party (UDC/SVP) agree. Thank goodness this was rejected.

I agree that the loyalty debate is ludicrous - but there is a silver lining to the backlash against dual citizen politicians:

It saved Switzerland from Michele Bachmann.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-c...ican-/32673192

Y'all dodged a bullet there.

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Old 24.01.2021, 15:06
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Of course it does. But to me the number of people who either interpret it differently, disrespect it or consider it useless is high there, in my experience. It feels a whole lot better to live in a community where things don't need to be written down or reminded, re-interpreted, etc. I am not sure if it is a continent thing or just CH.
Hmmmmmm. So you think interpretation of what, the law, societal standards are consistent here? Interesting.
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