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  #81  
Old 24.01.2021, 23:47
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Not sure if this is an honestly meant question, but if you look at history there is a lot of meddling in church affairs by governments. Even the King James Bible was, as the name suggests, translated on the king's orders, specifically to be able to clarify some ambiguous passages in favour of being interpreted to defend the monarchy.

The bible that Pilgrim Fathers brought to America was not the King James Version but the so-called Geneva translation which the king actually tried to suppress because the wording of said passages was subtly different. This was part of the reason they were persecuted and had to leave.

And going further back, Henry VIII, er, nationalized the church to be able to re-write its dogmas so he could get a divorce.
Didn't he get a couple?

Whether it's state vs the church or domination of either depends on a context. Where I am from the church was erased pretty much but replaced by another dogma, leftist nonsense. Evangelists have some, Mormons have some, commies have another...China just decides to completely own people's lives and Putin's crushing people's soul and any sense of justice now. What's the difference. It all looks like the craving for entertainment makes people susceptible to dogma.

Ideally, people are heard and decide who will rule them. CH is close to that ideal, plus they rule themselves to not need it. Church is a dicreete, private affair here. Of course it was different buf I am talking about now. The fact that we don't cave in any dogma doesn't mean progress yet, though. One has to construct and create something, not just talk passionately.
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  #82  
Old 24.01.2021, 23:52
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Why?

Same as CEOs and managers of big corporations need to declare and side jobs and they strictly may not work or consult for any competitor or would be competitor because of conflicts of interest.

My boss used to serve on the board of directors of another company but had to resign when they extended their portfolio to offer something that was competing with something we make. Even though the area of conflict is a totally insignificant fraction of total business on both sides.
It automatically assumes that they will be tempted and fail to resist serving the other countries, too..If a teacher is multilingual but hired to teach a particular language should he forget the other languages? Is it assumed that he will teach poorly?

Nationality doesn't mean that the person will represent other country's interests. It is just an assumption.

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  #83  
Old 25.01.2021, 06:13
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Not sure if this is an honestly meant question.
Of course it was an honestly meant question. Although asked more from a US perspective. Thank you.
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  #84  
Old 25.01.2021, 09:00
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

Surely any religious group is effectively a political group, it's a bunch of beliefs and goals shared by a large number of people usually with some sort of leadership etc.

The only difference is the inclusion of one or more deities or supernatural aspects in a religion, which people individually may or may not think makes a difference.
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  #85  
Old 25.01.2021, 10:15
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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And it will be their "vision" of Christianity which will actually restrict religious freedom in the US by forcing their beliefs on the rest of the population.
With the Antichrist as their leader...

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Politicians in particular should NEVER have multiple nationalities.

Tom
Bye bye Boris Johnson.

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Surely any religious group is effectively a political group, it's a bunch of beliefs and goals shared by a large number of people usually with some sort of leadership etc.

The only difference is the inclusion of one or more deities or supernatural aspects in a religion, which people individually may or may not think makes a difference.
While everything we do is probably in some way political, the major difference is whether a group actively seeks political power and influence. I don't have a problem with Muslims, Christians, Jews or whatever getting involved in politics, but when religious groups start telling their followers how to vote - then there's a problem.

I've been in a church in Switzerland (not a state church), where they did say how people should vote on specific issues. I think that is wrong.

Tl;DR I think it is entirely possible to have religious groups that are not into politics.
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  #86  
Old 25.01.2021, 10:48
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

I joined this conversation far too late ... but here's my take on it.

Religion is the opiate of the masses - a well known quote that is strikingly accurate. What is the best way for a politician to reach the masses? Through their religion...

Which is why the Republican party in the US has been successful amongst the population that they actually do not give a flipping crap about except to garner their votes. They do that by being pro-life, pretending to have wholesome family values and by working closely with mega preachers and mega churches...who use their naïve parishioners for the exact same reason as the politicians do, to get rich.

And control...what is the easiest way to control minds? Religion. So not only do these politicians become more powerful and wealthy through feigning on the weak masses, they can also control them far easier to serve their self interests. And well, this has been going on forever and is nothing new.

My only hope is that now that we have more information readily available in society, this will change...it is slowly changing in American society and that is why we see a whole lot of ugly, because the two opposite sides are fighting each other right now. The "liberals" are honestly perceived as "evil" & "Marxist" (they don't even know what Marxism is) amongst the evangelical population.

You should see some of the crap I see on Facebook...I am from Texas, & there is an active movement within the evangelical community there to stop the "liberal" Californians from moving to Texas in order to flee the high living costs in their former state.

Here's a great read:

https://academic.oup.com/sf/article/99/3/979/5830795
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  #87  
Old 25.01.2021, 10:56
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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You should see some of the crap I see on Facebook...I am from Texas, & there is an active movement within the evangelical community there to stop the "liberal" Californians from moving to Texas in order to flee the high living costs in their former state.

Here's a great read:

https://academic.oup.com/sf/article/99/3/979/5830795
From the canceled people?
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Old 25.01.2021, 11:05
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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From the canceled people?
One of my recent favorites...there is a pillow company that supports Trump and Bed Bath & Beyond (massive home super store in the US) has stopped carrying this brand of pillows because of it. All of these people I knew in my past were posting "I will no longer shop there, this cancel culture is abhorrent!" It really makes me laugh because well, they are doing the exact same thing...

Sad that cans of beans and pillows is what gets people going these days when we have so many other priorities on our hands...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53429797
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  #89  
Old 25.01.2021, 13:54
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Some people took the view that being tolerant, is sitting down with the intolerance and thinking there‘s a common ground
"I despise intolerance. So I remove every intolerant person from public discourse, of course except myself because I and only I am just in my intolerance."

Last edited by Urs Max; 25.01.2021 at 14:04.
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  #90  
Old 25.01.2021, 16:50
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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"I despise intolerance. So I remove every intolerant person from public discourse, of course except myself because I and only I am just in my intolerance."
Quite right. Intolerant people are non people and should be shipped off to the camps immediately for double plus ungood think.
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  #91  
Old 25.01.2021, 19:18
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Of course it was an honestly meant question. Although asked more from a US perspective. Thank you.
When the US Constitution was written, there wasn't very much US history to look back upon. So it was English precedent that they were thinking of and trying to prevent a repetition of. And inadequacies of English law they were trying to improve upon.
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  #92  
Old 25.01.2021, 19:28
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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It automatically assumes that they will be tempted and fail to resist serving the other countries, too..If a teacher is multilingual but hired to teach a particular language should he forget the other languages? Is it assumed that he will teach poorly?

Nationality doesn't mean that the person will represent other country's interests. It is just an assumption.
A teacher who teaches several subjects is not in conflict because of that.

But imagine now that we are talking about a trade deal with Indonesia, imagine that a senior Swiss politician were also Indonesian. It would then be entirely possible that he or she would be unnecessarily lenient and agree to a deal that is not in Switzerland's best interests.

Of course you can have sympathy for another country even without being a citizen.

Then you also get vested interests. We saw on this forum here how when the Brexit debate was going on that quite a few people were arguing their corner with arguments such as "my pension is going to lose value" or "my property is going to lose value", rather than talking about the bigger picture. Imagine if politicians had such conflicts . There might be a danger that they would sacrifice national interests to uphold their own private interests. Even if they wouldn't let these things happen intentionally, they might not negotiate quite as hard as they otherwise would.

I would like if as a minimum politicians must declare conflicts of interest publically, and then let the public decide whether that is a problem or not.
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Old 25.01.2021, 19:38
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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"I despise intolerance. So I remove every intolerant person from public discourse, of course except myself because I and only I am just in my intolerance."
Real tolerance should never extend to intolerance.

Real tolerance is about being tolerant of people you agree with anyway.

That takes real strength of character.
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  #94  
Old 25.01.2021, 20:04
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

you remember?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35K6vQRt67g


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Old 25.01.2021, 21:47
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Real tolerance is about being tolerant of people you agree with anyway.
That's right. Only be tolerant to right thinking people where right-thinking obviously means "thinking like I do". If it weren't it wouldn't be right! It's almost a tautology.
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Old 25.01.2021, 22:03
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

The reality is that there are are certain things that people should not be tolerant of, and they shouldn't tolerate things just for fear of seeming intolerant.

Imagine if we all still tolerated the enslavement of black people or refusing women to vote, etc. I think that sometimes there is a fine line between having integrity and being intolerant of certain behaviors or mindsets.
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Old 25.01.2021, 22:42
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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The reality is that there are are certain things that people should not be tolerant of...
Totally. The issue is in identifying those things.

I find that attitudes born of fear and hatred and begat violence are a good starter. But even that changes over time. I can't stand dogmatism.
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Old 26.01.2021, 09:04
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Why?
Conflict of interest.

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And would you allow them to be born into bi-national partnership?
For normal citizens it's fine, but people in public office should be required to renounce any other citizenships.

Also, people should having voting rights in only one country.

Tom
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Old 26.01.2021, 09:15
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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One of my recent favorites...there is a pillow company that supports Trump and Bed Bath & Beyond (massive home super store in the US) has stopped carrying this brand of pillows because of it. All of these people I knew in my past were posting "I will no longer shop there, this cancel culture is abhorrent!" It really makes me laugh because well, they are doing the exact same thing...

Sad that cans of beans and pillows is what gets people going these days when we have so many other priorities on our hands...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53429797
I'd be more interested in supporting companies that create jobs on the local market, have sustainable and environment friendly strategies, respect their employees rights, pay decent salaries and treat customers with respect.

I wouldn't care about which party they support. Or don't support. But then we live in a very ideologies based society today and individual or merit based cases don't matter.
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Old 26.01.2021, 10:50
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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The reality is that there are are certain things that people should not be tolerant of, and they shouldn't tolerate things just for fear of seeming intolerant.

Imagine if we all still tolerated the enslavement of black people or refusing women to vote, etc. I think that sometimes there is a fine line between having integrity and being intolerant of certain behaviors or mindsets.
Slavery is not an opinion.

The right to make pronouncements on slavery, even unpopular ones, is an opinion.

That's a big difference.
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