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  #101  
Old 26.01.2021, 11:14
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Slavery is not an opinion.

The right to make pronouncements on slavery, even unpopular ones, is an opinion.

That's a big difference.
But religion seeps into the American (and elsewhere) politics & these politicians take sides in order to get the religious voters votes ... I am not tolerant of the Republican's need to govern women's bodies, to determine whether gay love can be legitimized etc. based upon evangelical doctrine.

Edit: I know a lovely girl from college, who is very religious. She is one of the sweetest and kindest human beings I've ever known, but she voted for Trump simply because she is devoutly pro-life. It boggles my mind...simply because Republican politics is not pro-actual living life in any way and well, Trump has to be the most un-Christian like president to ever exist.
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  #102  
Old 26.01.2021, 11:19
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Slavery is not an opinion.

The right to make pronouncements on slavery, even unpopular ones, is an opinion.

That's a big difference.
So should we be tolerant of people who say that African-Americans should still be living in slavery, just because they don't actually own any slaves themselves?

No, it's not about whether it's "just" an opinion or not, some things, and some opinions, should not be tolerated.
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  #103  
Old 26.01.2021, 11:59
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Slavery is not an opinion.

The right to make pronouncements on slavery, even unpopular ones, is an opinion.

That's a big difference.
The problem is that "opinions" can easily lead to hate speech and propaganda that is intended to motivate violent behavior.

Would you be okay with a Jihadist group in your neighborhood discussing their "opinions" that a Swiss federal building should be bombed due to a burka ban?

Would you be okay with someone teaching kids white supremacist ideologies or that all gays should be killed, etc. because, well, that is their right to their opinion?

Would you be okay with a pro-slavery group gaining enough momentum due to the expression of "opinions" and hate propaganda online assuming political power?

This isn't simply a matter of "opinion" or the freedom to have those opinions. This is a matter of people forcing those opinions onto others and using those opinions or ideologies to try to justify violent or oppressive behavior.
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  #104  
Old 26.01.2021, 12:25
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Conflict of interest.
I do not think it works this math way. In theory you are correct. In real life, to find a person with one passport only is getting damn hard here. I like it. I think 1800s you may have had more luck.
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For normal citizens it's fine, but people in public office should be required to renounce any other citizenships.

Also, people should having voting rights in only one country.
It seems that the only solution is to allow only one citizenship. Because - define public office. Especially here. Where it changes on short notice, and there are so many, on different municipal, cantonal, fed levels. And then again, it is just an assumption that people in those offices will prefer one of the countries and not CH. Public office is not something that lasts a life-time, denouncing one citizenship in order to qualify for that office takes long time and is not worth it. Another point is, I would count competences as a higher qualifier than that person's parents' origin. Maybe track the previous employers (executive roles in investments, etc.) and personal investments, tax write offs.

I agree on the principle, but it is a good theory that is not practically implementable as a rule or mass measure.

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A teacher who teaches several subjects is not in conflict because of that.

But imagine now that we are talking about a trade deal with Indonesia, imagine that a senior Swiss politician were also Indonesian. It would then be entirely possible that he or she would be unnecessarily lenient and agree to a deal that is not in Switzerland's best interests.

Of course you can have sympathy for another country even without being a citizen.
This. Then to decide what office is worth being strict with assumption that double nationality automatically means loss of objectivity, gets iffy.. The teacher example was just to make us think about assumed competences or bias. Because we cannot. I know people with dual nationality with objective minds, and one nationality who don't know how subjective all is in their thinking. And, of course, everyone means well. On paper.

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Then you also get vested interests. We saw on this forum here how when the Brexit debate was going on that quite a few people were arguing their corner with arguments such as "my pension is going to lose value" or "my property is going to lose value", rather than talking about the bigger picture. Imagine if politicians had such conflicts . There might be a danger that they would sacrifice national interests to uphold their own private interests. Even if they wouldn't let these things happen intentionally, they might not negotiate quite as hard as they otherwise would.
Of course.

But I think private interests are easily identifiable. It is better to assume that everyone has them. Not filter some positions by assuming they might do wrong, based on nationality. Or other random criteria.

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I would like if as a minimum politicians must declare conflicts of interest publically, and then let the public decide whether that is a problem or not.
That would be a popularity vote. Easily influenced by Marketing101, look at the latest US elections.

And, some politicians would be honest, some less, some would just re-label truth. Public would react with some delay, and off we go with expensive spectacle that reminds me EU. Lots of rules and measures that in theory work.
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  #105  
Old 26.01.2021, 12:35
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Slavery is not an opinion.

The right to make pronouncements on slavery, even unpopular ones, is an opinion.

That's a big difference.
I think people are getting description confused with prescription. Normatives rejoice.

I can see us reverting to boring positivism, just to be able to find any seeming "middle ground". We are heading there.
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  #106  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:17
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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The problem is that "opinions" can easily lead to hate speech and propaganda that is intended to motivate violent behavior.

Would you be okay with a Jihadist group in your neighborhood discussing their "opinions" that a Swiss federal building should be bombed due to a burka ban?

Would you be okay with someone teaching kids white supremacist ideologies or that all gays should be killed, etc. because, well, that is their right to their opinion?

Would you be okay with a pro-slavery group gaining enough momentum due to the expression of "opinions" and hate propaganda online assuming political power?

This isn't simply a matter of "opinion" or the freedom to have those opinions. This is a matter of people forcing those opinions onto others and using those opinions or ideologies to try to justify violent or oppressive behavior.
Actually, yes I would.

It's called the canary in the coal mine. As long as people can say these things, and don't get locked up purely for saying them, it means I'm safe to say much more reasonable and normal things that might nevertheless displease the powers that be.

I have sufficient trust in democracy and free debate to believe crazy ideas will never gain middle ground.

It's by banning ideas that you give them legitimacy. If the government doesn't want you to know something, then it must be because it's true. Oder?
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  #107  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:22
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

There is nothing wrong with Religion when it’s done for the right reasons be it Christianity or Islam or whatever. I have seen plenty of people turn their lives around from hopeless situations thanks to Christianity or Islam so more power to it when it works.

The problem lies where cultures start interfering and then we get a serious diversion from the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Prophet Mohammed, just look at what happens in Saudi Arabia or the Deep South in America with this Evangelical rhetoric, nothing wrong with Evangelical teachings when they follow the gospel.

The terrorism you see on the Islamic side or what you hear from the nutty evangelicals is nothing to do with religion this is a culture problem.
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  #108  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:25
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I think people are getting description confused with prescription. Normatives rejoice.
I think any such confusion is only increased by statements like that. You seem to be posting in a psuedo-English that actually says nothing at all, or if it does it's some sort of intellectual superiority being displayed.

To put it more clearly - I don't understand what your above statement means. At all. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Can you not try to post in normal everyday English, in an effort to reduce confusion, not increase it?
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  #109  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:34
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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The problem is that "opinions" can easily lead to hate speech and propaganda that is intended to motivate violent behavior.

Would you be okay with a Jihadist group in your neighborhood discussing their "opinions" that a Swiss federal building should be bombed due to a burka ban?

Would you be okay with someone teaching kids white supremacist ideologies or that all gays should be killed, etc. because, well, that is their right to their opinion?

Would you be okay with a pro-slavery group gaining enough momentum due to the expression of "opinions" and hate propaganda online assuming political power?

This isn't simply a matter of "opinion" or the freedom to have those opinions. This is a matter of people forcing those opinions onto others and using those opinions or ideologies to try to justify violent or oppressive behavior.
If you think those opinions and groups deserve to be banned and otherwise suppressed, you must logically demand the same for BLM. The destruction, violence, and murders resulting from the riots speak for themselves, they're not just imagined or planned for, they're real.
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  #110  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:43
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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But religion seeps into the American (and elsewhere) politics & these politicians take sides in order to get the religious voters votes ... I am not tolerant of the Republican's need to govern women's bodies, to determine whether gay love can be legitimized etc. based upon evangelical doctrine.

Edit: I know a lovely girl from college, who is very religious. She is one of the sweetest and kindest human beings I've ever known, but she voted for Trump simply because she is devoutly pro-life. It boggles my mind...simply because Republican politics is not pro-actual living life in any way and well, Trump has to be the most un-Christian like president to ever exist.
In the past, there were pro-life Democrats and pro-choice Republicans. To some extent there still are. However, the Republicans and the Democrats in recent decades have chosen their camps, and this has ended up with many voters voting essentially only on that issue.

The danger is that if the party with the view you don't favour is elected, then there's few checks or balances within the elected party preventing radical change. Whatever your opinion on the matter of abortion rights, this is not a good situation. (Unless your party wins of course!)
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  #111  
Old 26.01.2021, 13:55
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I do not think it works this math way. In theory you are correct. In real life, to find a person with one passport only is getting damn hard here. I like it. I think 1800s you may have had more luck.
Less than 20% have more than one nationality according to official statistics. Even if you assume many unknowns that still leaves a sizeable pool of candidates.

This requirement makes sense for the executive on the federal level that represents Switzerland abroad in whichever way, perhaps in part on the cantonal level as well. But I fail to see how that would be even remotely relevant for a GemeindeRat (city council ?) in Böbikon with their 171 residents.

In some positions, e.g. as an assistant of a federal representative, having roots in the other country may be an outright plus.
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The danger is that if the party with the view you don't favour is elected, then there's few checks or balances within the elected party preventing radical change. Whatever your opinion on the matter of abortion rights, this is not a good situation. (Unless your party wins of course!)
This.

See Biden's 17 Executive Orders issued on the first day. Nobody gains from the back-and-forth-and-back whenever the new POTUS is from the other party, it only creates costs and uncertainty.

Find a solution both sides can agree on instead.
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  #112  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:07
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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If you think those opinions and groups deserve to be banned and otherwise suppressed, you must logically demand the same for BLM. The destruction, violence, and murders resulting from the riots speak for themselves, they're not just imagined or planned for, they're real.
And the reasons why the riots occurred were not just imagined or planned for, they were real. Really dumb comparison...
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  #113  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:20
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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And the reasons why the riots occurred were not just imagined or planned for, they were real. Really dumb comparison...
Freedom of opinion also includes the right to be mistaken.

Who is to judge which reasons are real and which are not?
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  #114  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:21
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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And the reasons why the riots occurred were not just imagined or planned for, they were real. Really dumb comparison...
So you say there is justified violence other than self-defense? And it's the individual who decides?

What keeps the next guy from grabbing their gun and wreaking havoc???

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  #115  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:27
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Actually, yes I would.

It's called the canary in the coal mine. As long as people can say these things, and don't get locked up purely for saying them, it means I'm safe to say much more reasonable and normal things that might nevertheless displease the powers that be.

I have sufficient trust in democracy and free debate to believe crazy ideas will never gain middle ground.

It's by banning ideas that you give them legitimacy. If the government doesn't want you to know something, then it must be because it's true. Oder?
I'm not talking about getting locked up simply for saying something. However, when someone's ideologies are being used to promote and encourage violence, I think it should be quite obvious that something needs to be done. Everyone has the freedom to say what they want. They do not have the freedom to be immune to its consequences.

Perhaps if it was your 14-year old who had been recruited and brainwashed by a violent extremist group on social media then you would see things differently. Or perhaps if it was someone you loved who was murdered for being gay or for being black after an alt-right rally.

Terrorism and social media
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror...d_social_media

According to your perspective, should someone be allowed to walk up to a black child on the street and start screaming racist comments at them because well, that is simply them employing their right to an opinion? (Seriously, please answer that). Should I be able to walk into a church during a service and start screaming at people that god doesn't exist and that I think they're idiots? Hell, it's my opinion. I should be able to freely express it when and where and how I please, without having to worry about any possible consequences, right?
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  #116  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:28
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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So you say ...
BZZzzzt!

'I'm thinking of coining a new Internet Law, bit like Godwin's. The moment someone starts a sentence with "so what you're saying is" is the moment they lose the argument.
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  #117  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:31
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Less than 20% have more than one nationality according to official statistics. Even if you assume many unknowns that still leaves a sizeable pool of candidates.
That's a lot, 20% fewer awesome candidates would be a lot. Just because we can assume something. I don't think that that assumption would justify such discrimination, tbh. Or selectiveness, probably more useful pov.

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This requirement makes sense for the executive on the federal level that represents Switzerland abroad in whichever way, perhaps in part on the cantonal level as well. But I fail to see how that would be even remotely relevant for a GemeindeRat (city council ?) in Böbikon with their 171 residents.
Yes!

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In some positions, e.g. as an assistant of a federal representative, having roots in the other country may be an outright plus.
This.

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See Biden's 17 Executive Orders issued on the first day. Nobody gains from the back-and-forth-and-back whenever the new POTUS is from the other party, it only creates costs and uncertainty.

Find a solution both sides can agree on instead.
This.
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  #118  
Old 26.01.2021, 14:42
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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So you say there is justified violence other than self-defense? And it's the individual who decides?

What keeps the next guy from grabbing their gun and wreaking havoc???

This is going off topic...

The BLM protests were peaceful with an exception of a few, and most of the violence came from the police or the racists they were protesting against.
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  #119  
Old 26.01.2021, 15:02
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I'm not talking about getting locked up simply for saying something. However, when someone's ideologies are being used to promote and encourage violence, I think it should be quite obvious that something needs to be done. Everyone has the freedom to say what they want. They do not have the freedom to be immune to its consequences.
I never said people should be free from the consequences of what they say.

But those consequences should not include discrimination or repression by the state.

But they may include consequences such as losing friends or business or whatever. Or people thinking you're a crackpot.

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Perhaps if it was your 14-year old who had been recruited and brainwashed by a violent extremist group on social media then you would see things differently.
you mean like BLM or Antifa?

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Or perhaps if it was someone you loved who was murdered for being gay or for being black after an alt-right rally.
Murder is not an opinion.


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According to your perspective, should someone be allowed to walk up to a black child on the street and start screaming racist comments at them because well, that is simply them employing their right to an opinion? (Seriously, please answer that).
Rap music is still legal I gather.

But seriously. children are a special case because parents have a right and a duty to protect them and determine what they want to expose them to.

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Should I be able to walk into a church during a service and start screaming at people that god doesn't exist and that I think they're idiots? Hell, it's my opinion.
A church is private property. The custodians would have the right to refuse entry.

But if they want to stand in the street outside the church and do the same while the people are coming in or going out, then I don't see why not.

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I should be able to freely express it when and where and how I please, without having to worry about any possible consequences, right?
If worrying about consequences is a euphemism for worrying about jackboots kicking in your door at 3am because you used the wrong words, then maybe you should think about why it was that people were fleeing from dictatorships rather than trying to get inside.
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  #120  
Old 26.01.2021, 17:08
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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BZZzzzt!

'I'm thinking of coining a new Internet Law, bit like Godwin's. The moment someone starts a sentence with "so what you're saying is" is the moment they lose the argument.
Now this should be a pinned post...
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