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  #141  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:11
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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And talking about researching the nazis, why don't you read up on how suppression of the movement in the early years gave it credibility in the first place.
Isn't it unfair in this exchange to be the ones who grew up where nazis and other opressive pest actually operated. Openly and officially. Getting tired of the sanctimonious "why don't you go and read up" bs.

I have a question - can feminism seem as propaganda to some people? Or is it a political movement?
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  #142  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:20
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I don't think it's me who is "moving the goal posts here." Because we're clearly talking about two different things. You are talking about mere speech and opinions. I'm talking about speech and ideologies that are intended to provoke violence. As I've already tried to explain, it's like the difference between simply saying "I don't like Mexicans" and forming an anti-Mexican / anti-immigrant group that promotes violence and violent attitudes toward Mexicans.
If you look at some of the people who have been deplatformed and cancelled off social media, they were saying much less than that. So the definition of "this could be used to incite violence" is being used in an inflationary manner.

But for fear of repeating myself. If somebody says, here Pancakes, get a brick and throw it through that window. And you do it. then you cannot say, somebody else made me do it. Likewise if somebody says, here Pancakes, go and set fire to that synagogue full of Trump supporters. It's always still your choice to walk away.

At the Nurenberg trials, I don't think you could have got away with saying "sorry mr Judge, but I listened to a speech by this Hitler guy and that's what made me do it". In fact it's your fault. You shouldn't have allowed me to listen to him. It's anybody's fault but mine.

No. It's you. You did it. Now you suck up the punishment.

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You're trying to minimize the subject to being merely about speech in general and are completely failing to recognize or admit the fact that speech has consequences.
Of course speech has consequences.

I'm saying that's no reason to suppress it.

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You're also trying to reduce the issue to being about "dictatorship" instead of addressing the real problem and the fact that hate propaganda can lead and has led to hate crimes as well as discrimination, terrorism, etc.
said all dictators.

Hate speech by Trotsky is the reason Stalin's economic plans failed

Hate speech by Gülen is the reason that Turkey isn't the paradise that Erdogan promised.

Hate speech by the Jews was the reason Germany was humiliated in WW1.

Familiar?
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  #143  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:20
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Yep, and ...

The Capitol attack can be tied almost exclusively to hate speech and misinformation (i.e. QAnon) being spread online and within these communities.

BLM protests were in response to actual events that happened.
Look up Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver, Dylan Noble. Unarmed whites killed by police in ways that are very similar to Floyd. And they're far from the only ones.

By your own logic it's justified to loot, set buildings on fire, and murder in protest of those killings.

Unless you say whites don't have that right. Which would be utterly racist.

Pick your poison.
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  #144  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:21
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I have a question - can feminism seem as propaganda to some people? Or is it a political movement?
Both. And more: a movement, tenet, way of life, a joke, an irrelevance...
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  #145  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:25
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

So why make a special deal out of evangelicals?
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  #146  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:32
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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If you look at some of the people who have been deplatformed and cancelled off social media, they were saying much less than that. So the definition of "this could be used to incite violence" is being used in an inflationary manner.

But for fear of repeating myself. If somebody says, here Pancakes, get a brick and throw it through that window. And you do it. then you cannot say, somebody else made me do it. Likewise if somebody says, here Pancakes, go and set fire to that synagogue full of Trump supporters. It's always still your choice to walk away.

At the Nurenberg trials, I don't think you could have got away with saying "sorry mr Judge, but I listened to a speech by this Hitler guy and that's what made me do it". In fact it's your fault. You shouldn't have allowed me to listen to him. It's anybody's fault but mine.

No. It's you. You did it. Now you suck up the punishment.



Of course speech has consequences.

I'm saying that's no reason to suppress it.



said all dictators.

Hate speech by Trotsky is the reason Stalin's economic plans failed

Hate speech by Gülen is the reason that Turkey isn't the paradise that Erdogan promised.

Hate speech by the Jews was the reason Germany was humiliated in WW1.

Familiar?

Hate speech against the Jewish people has been active since way before WW1, before the 16th C.

I think by making it about personal choice - Pancake's brick, for example, you are forgetting about mob mentality. That real phenomenon of a shared emotion/will. Tell enough individuals who are currently acting as part of a group to throw a brick and some of them will. Collective there will be enough to do real damage. I think it's disingenuous to say otherwise. Look at how an idea can grow on social media - the ice bucket challenge, the godawful recent self-asphyxiation one. The websites dedicted to the celebration of eating disorders. Some speech should be suppressed because of the violence/harm it incites in individuals and groups who don't realise they've been groomed.

Famously the "I was just following orders " excuse was given by Nazi prison camp guards.

Derek Bentley was hung for his words, for telling his partner in crime to "let him have it".
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  #147  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:37
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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So why make a special deal out of evangelicals?
Is that to me? My answer is that if you cannot see the difference between feminism and the brand of religion this thread started talking about ( I believe Susie or Meloncollie explained the difference) - the type of "Christianity" that is only concerned with power and believes poor folk are poor simply because they lack sufficient motivation - then... our idologies are even further apart than I realised.



Edit: it was Meloncollie explaining the difference between Christian nationalism and the oft-maligned (like here in this thread) American evangelist movement.
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  #148  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:39
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Familiar?
"They had no idea why they voted the way they voted".

"They had no idea what they were doing, somebody made them do it".

There is strange patronizing and infantilizing attitude towards "the masses" in the media.
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  #149  
Old 26.01.2021, 22:45
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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So why make a special deal out of evangelicals?
because they are, for sure. Many of them do not believe in God, or the tenets of Christian religion either. And they hate with a passion and worse, anyone who does.

Last edited by JackieH; 26.01.2021 at 23:18.
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  #150  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:10
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Look up Tony Timpa, Daniel Shaver, Dylan Noble. Unarmed whites killed by police in ways that are very similar to Floyd. And they're far from the only ones.

By your own logic it's justified to loot, set buildings on fire, and murder in protest of those killings.

Unless you say whites don't have that right. Which would be utterly racist.

Pick your poison.
Um if you want to dive deep into my post history, I have discussed exactly those people. Tony is from my home town - a terrible story. But racism is deep in the US and we cannot deny it.

And please do not twist my words - I never gave justification for those things. I gave justification for the protests & provided examples of what actually happened. But twist things in accordance to your preferred narrative.
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  #151  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:10
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Is that to me? My answer is that if you cannot see the difference between feminism and the brand of religion this thread started talking about ( I believe Susie or Meloncollie explained the difference) - the type of "Christianity" that is only concerned with power and believes poor folk are poor simply because they lack sufficient motivation - then... our idologies are even further apart than I realised.



Edit: it was Meloncollie explaining the difference between Christian nationalism and the oft-maligned (like here in this thread) American evangelist movement.
Thing is: can you ignore this brand of Christianity? I surely can because it doesn't affect me. Can Americans ignore it? I'll look up for a post NotAllThere has made here, he might have a point.


Oh yes, here it is>

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In every society you'll have fringe groups who believe in all sort of things.
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I don't think they're fringe. That's what is worrying. The prosperity teachers are closely aligned with groups like the New Aposotolic Reformation (NAR), who teach that the church must make sure it has influence (and therefore power) in all areas of American life. For that reason the leaders persuage their followers to give generously to political campaigns such as Trump. By getting their churches to give money, they gain political power.

I'm a Christian. The thought of living in such a theocracy - or even the US becoming one - scares me.

Last edited by greenmount; 26.01.2021 at 23:22. Reason: merging posts
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  #152  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:13
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Thing is: can you ignore this brand of Christianity? I surely can because it doesn't affect me. Can Americans ignore it? I'll look up for a post NotAllThere has made here, he might have a point.
It's a movement that makes certain people powerful and rich. Not sure ignoring is an option. It needs its oxygen supply cutting off. IMO, obvs.
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  #153  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:17
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Thing is: can you ignore this brand of Christianity? I surely can because it doesn't affect me. Can Americans ignore it? I'll look up for a post NotAllThere has made here, he might have a point.
I ignore it as much as possible. But it’s like the leak in your roof you can ignore for a bit until it floods the whole house.

It is sadly rooted deep in American Culture ... many of us are descendants of puritan refugees after all...
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  #154  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:21
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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And please do not twist my words - .
It is not a civil and polite invitation to exchange ideas.
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  #155  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:46
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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If you look at some of the people who have been deplatformed and cancelled off social media, they were saying much less than that. So the definition of "this could be used to incite violence" is being used in an inflationary manner.

But for fear of repeating myself. If somebody says, here Pancakes, get a brick and throw it through that window. And you do it. then you cannot say, somebody else made me do it. Likewise if somebody says, here Pancakes, go and set fire to that synagogue full of Trump supporters. It's always still your choice to walk away.

At the Nurenberg trials, I don't think you could have got away with saying "sorry mr Judge, but I listened to a speech by this Hitler guy and that's what made me do it". In fact it's your fault. You shouldn't have allowed me to listen to him. It's anybody's fault but mine.

No. It's you. You did it. Now you suck up the punishment.



Of course speech has consequences.

I'm saying that's no reason to suppress it.



said all dictators.

Hate speech by Trotsky is the reason Stalin's economic plans failed

Hate speech by Gülen is the reason that Turkey isn't the paradise that Erdogan promised.

Hate speech by the Jews was the reason Germany was humiliated in WW1.

Familiar?
Well, you clearly believe that free speech is more important than people's lives. And that is where we differ.

You're also giving too much credit to the concept of free will. People are programmed into their beliefs and ideologies. It's not like they just have a switch where they can choose to turn their beliefs on or off. And that goes back to the essence of the problem, regarding the power of propaganda and hate speech -- that it has the ability to 'program' people into extremist and violent ideologies. Do you think racist people one day made a conscious decision to be racist, or were they programmed into those beliefs? How about people who use their religion to feel justified in committing murder?

You keep bringing up the term "dictator," which is defined as the following: "A dictator is a political leader who possesses absolute power. A dictatorship is a state ruled by one dictator or by a small clique. ... In modern usage the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds or abuses an extraordinary amount of personal power."

Trump being banned from social media was precisely because of his dictator-like behavior and his relentless attempt to overturn an election, including the abuse of his power as President to try to do so.

Social media companies have a moral responsibility, considering the service that they provide and the HUGE amount of people that use that service. They have the right to block or remove anyone that they deem to be a threat or a potential threat, which is a responsibility that rests on their shoulders. Also, social media is not mandatory. It's not a "fundamental right." If someone is kicked off of it for being an a**hole, it's their own fault. Just like if someone is kicked off of the EF for a similar reason.
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  #156  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:50
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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I think by making it about personal choice - Pancake's brick, for example, you are forgetting about mob mentality. That real phenomenon of a shared emotion/will. Tell enough individuals who are currently acting as part of a group to throw a brick and some of them will.
Let's just analyze this shall we?

Nazi Germany was a place where lots of opinions and speech was suppressed. But a lot of bricks were thrown so quite a lot of windows. especially of Jewish shops.

So if you are proposing that curtailing free speech stops mobs, no.

Maybe even the opposite in this case. Most people who thought throwing bricks through windows was not a good idea had already been arrested by then. Hate speech you see. Hate speech is always defined by those in power.

So maybe you think, the example is disingenuous. Back then the bad guys were in power and today the good guys are in power and the good guys would never incite a mob.

But can you really be sure? And even if you can, how do you know that somebody else won't come to power at some point and rejoice over all these useful laws for suppressing dissent?



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Famously the "I was just following orders " excuse was given by Nazi prison camp guards.
True, but I don't think the judge acquitted them for it.
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  #157  
Old 26.01.2021, 23:59
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Well, you clearly believe that free speech is more important than people's lives. And that is where we differ.
Many people have died for free speech.

History considers them heroes.

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Do you think racist people one day made a conscious decision to be racist, or were they programmed into those beliefs?
No.

But they did make a conscious decision to burn down a synagogue.

This is a huge difference.

If they hadn't been racists they might have burnt down the synagogue for a different reason. Marxist hate of religion for example.

Ideology is a crutch. Lazy people blame others for their own actions.

Or put it this way.

If you believe we as humans are programmed and that it is therefore beyond our control whether we throw bricks into Jewish shops or not, then how do you know you are not programmed now, and that all these things you are writing here and now are not your free will?

Is there any point in me arguing with somebody who by their own logic cannot with certainty exclude that they are not a robot?

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You keep bringing up the term "dictator," which is defined as the following: "A dictator is a political leader who possesses absolute power.
Rubbish

Karl Marx said that socialism is a dictatorship by the proletariat.

There were more than one of them as far as I know.

Another example

Miguel Primo de Rivera was a dictator but basically his opponents ran rings around him and did as they liked.
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  #158  
Old 27.01.2021, 00:20
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Ideology is a crutch. Lazy people blame others for their own actions.

Or put it this way.

If you believe we as humans are programmed and that it is therefore beyond our control whether we throw bricks into Jewish shops or not, then how do you know you are not programmed now, and that all these things you are writing here and now are not your free will?

Is there any point in me arguing with somebody who by their own logic cannot with certainty exclude that they are not a robot?

Rubbish
Please do some research regarding the illusion of free will. We do not choose our thoughts; we become aware of them. Every thought we have is dictated by a neurotransmitter in our brain, which we do not consciously control. That's how consciousness / signal propagation occurs in the brain, to form what we experience as thoughts. Even brain scans have shown that our brains make our decisions before we are consciously aware of them. What primarily sets us apart from robots is our emotions (i.e. the limbic system). And even our concept of morality is closely tied to and dependent upon the fact that we experience emotions. But regarding free will -- we do not choose our thoughts, but we do have the ability of introspection and empathy and to choose, to some extent, how we let our thoughts dictate or control our behavior. That is something that, for example, a psychopath does not do because they have a brain that produces 4 times more dopamine than a normal brain.

Also, please do some research regarding programming and how people learn, including babies. People usually learn via mirror neurons (essentially, replicating the behavior that they see and experience). This extends to cultural programming and absorbing the beliefs and social norms of whatever culture or belief system someone is raised in and/or born into.
https://www.matec-conferences.org/ar...2017_12012.pdf

I'm done with this conversation.

Last edited by Pancakes; 27.01.2021 at 00:33.
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Old 27.01.2021, 00:46
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Let's just analyze this shall we?

Nazi Germany was a place where lots of opinions and speech was suppressed. But a lot of bricks were thrown so quite a lot of windows. especially of Jewish shops.

So if you are proposing that curtailing free speech stops mobs, no.

Maybe even the opposite in this case. Most people who thought throwing bricks through windows was not a good idea had already been arrested by then. Hate speech you see. Hate speech is always defined by those in power.

So maybe you think, the example is disingenuous. Back then the bad guys were in power and today the good guys are in power and the good guys would never incite a mob.

But can you really be sure? And even if you can, how do you know that somebody else won't come to power at some point and rejoice over all these useful laws for suppressing dissent?





True, but I don't think the judge acquitted them for it.
I believe you just want to argue.

Again, I was disagreeing with your assertion that words were harmless. You have since moved to an entirely new set of goal posts.

I'm not proposing that at all. Reread what I wrote. Or not. Is up to you.

Edit: apparently pre WW2, the "following superior orders" as defence was successful. Post WW2 not. It seems to hang on whether or not the individual actually acting upon those orders knew/believed that order to be criminal. So yes, folk were acquitted for "a big boy ,ade me do it and then he ran away."
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Old 27.01.2021, 01:24
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Re: Are american evangelicals just a political group

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Um if you want to dive deep into my post history, I have discussed exactly those people. Tony is from my home town - a terrible story. But racism is deep in the US and we cannot deny it.
Where do you see me say or imply that racism doesn't exist, in the US or elsewhere? Please link the post(s), and note that I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing.
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And please do not twist my words - I never gave justification for those things. I gave justification for the protests & provided examples of what actually happened. But twist things in accordance to your preferred narrative.
Well, I said riots, not protests, in the post you replied to. As did you in your reply.

In your next post you said that the triple-digit number of riots is just "a few", and claimed for claiming's sake that "most of the violence came from the police or the racists they were protesting against".

If that's not defending the riots nothing is. Stop trying to present yourself as a victim of my supposed misinterpretation, it doesn't work.
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