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  #21  
Old 04.02.2021, 00:34
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Re: The day the Music died.

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Yeah, I get it. People have what they wanted. Or at least a significant part of voters.
A tiny majority which has disappeared since, just due to demographics- old ones gone and young ones now able to vote. But things have massively changed since and those who still want Brexit, now they know what it entails- are very few and far between. Farmers, fishermen, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, artists, actors, musicians, etc, etc, now know they were lied to and conned- big time- and are major losers now.

Good job Elton John understands the issues and has began to fight, with other famous musicians, to find solutions.

Peru and far destinations are a totally different story. You can't jump on the train or in your old car or van and drive to Peru or Mexico from London- you can to Europe, and they do, in very large numbers. Travelling without checks, wiht their instruments from country to country within Europe- cheap and easy. Well, they did - not possible now.
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  #22  
Old 04.02.2021, 02:16
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Re: The day the Music died.

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Another misleading article from the left wing, pro-EU biased Guardian.
It was the EU that rejected the agreement not the other way round.

When got some facts and some credible links got back to us.
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  #23  
Old 04.02.2021, 02:19
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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Terrible situation for British music,

As I understand it, they can still come if they get the required visa like all third countries.



Maybe someone could start an agency to handle the processing, if it is so burdensome.
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  #24  
Old 04.02.2021, 12:18
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

As Elton said, established musicians and orchestras with managers and accountants and lawyers, and huge incomes- will find a way. But Elton remembers when he was young and not famous, and how they travelled then.

I am talking about musicians who are not famous or rich, and until now could jump in the car of van and drive over to tour Europe. It is not only Visas which are the problem, but importing instruments, having proof of purchase, dates, bills. Those musician friends do gigs where the hat is passed around, play for accomodation and board and a bit of petrol money, and hop from country to country in EU playing at festivals, etc. They are the people who bring amazing joy to all the busker festivals and minor rock/folk musicals all over the EU.
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  #25  
Old 04.02.2021, 12:55
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

Well, at least I hope that for musicians, dancers, actors etc artists in general all these procedures will become much simpler. Not only for the Britons, "third-nationals" in general.

Art doesn't know barriers, why should we impose artificial ones.
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  #26  
Old 04.02.2021, 13:12
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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As Elton said, established musicians and orchestras with managers and accountants and lawyers, and huge incomes- will find a way. But Elton remembers when he was young and not famous, and how they travelled then.

I am talking about musicians who are not famous or rich, and until now could jump in the car of van and drive over to tour Europe. It is not only Visas which are the problem, but importing instruments, having proof of purchase, dates, bills. Those musician friends do gigs where the hat is passed around, play for accomodation and board and a bit of petrol money, and hop from country to country in EU playing at festivals, etc. They are the people who bring amazing joy to all the busker festivals and minor rock/folk musicals all over the EU.
Jumping in the car and drive over to tour Europe? That sounds like the freedom of movement for workers that motivated Brexit in first place. I can bet the work permit exception for musicians (and cultural workers in general) was not agreed because some pesky EU politicians were not happy with a caste system. Freedom of movement for musicians, Polish plumbers, and everyone else or no freedom.

Let us pass to the paid work issue. Well, passing the hat is not paid work. So, UK musicians can still come as tourists up to 90 days and play for free

For paid work, the only change is that the EU+EEE+Switzerland became 26, 27 or thirty something countries with different rules. Some EU countries already have exemptions for work permit (visa) rules for cultural activities, for example France:
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Depuis novembre 2016, un artiste ou technicien étranger (et non ressortissant de l’UE) venant travailler en France pour des missions inférieures ou égales à 3 mois et ne résidant pas déjà sur le territoire français n’a donc plus besoin de solliciter cette autorisation.

Seuls certains secteurs d’activités sont concernés, dont les activités artistiques et culturelles suivantes : les manifestations sportives, culturelles, artistiques et scientifiques; la production et la diffusion cinématographiques, audiovisuelles, du spectacle et de l'édition phonographique, lorsque l’étranger exerce la profession d’artiste du spectacle ou de personnel technique attaché directement à la production ou à la réalisation ; le mannequinat et la pose artistique.

NB : cette exemption de l’APT s’applique aussi bien à l’employeur français qu’à l’employeur étranger qui effectue une prestation en France.
https://www.gmba-allinial.com/fr/mag...oits-etrangers

If my food and roof over my head depended on learning the laws of 30 something countries, I would be quite motivated to learn. There's time before current travel restrictions end, so let artists read.
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  #27  
Old 04.02.2021, 13:40
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Re: The day the Music died.

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A tiny majority which has disappeared since, just due to demographics- old ones gone and young ones now able to vote. But things have massively changed since and those who still want Brexit, now they know what it entails- are very few and far between. Farmers, fishermen, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, artists, actors, musicians, etc, etc, now know they were lied to and conned- big time- and are major losers now.

Good job Elton John understands the issues and has began to fight, with other famous musicians, to find solutions.

Peru and far destinations are a totally different story. You can't jump on the train or in your old car or van and drive to Peru or Mexico from London- you can to Europe, and they do, in very large numbers. Travelling without checks, wiht their instruments from country to country within Europe- cheap and easy. Well, they did - not possible now.
Ahhh, Brexit. It will be studied one day. Sorry, it is studied in social and political sciences faculties. The pro-Brexit campaigning, everything.
Anyways, I agree with you but I think we're all past this discussion. I hope things will get better for the artists. At least for them.
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  #28  
Old 04.02.2021, 14:19
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

Axa, some gigs they pass the hat, others they get paid small amounts to cover expenses, some festivals they get more. It is not a job contract, they are itinerant, and often have many instruments they will have huge problems getting over borders. Some are home-made, no bills, no price- some are antiques (like my friend's violin)- it is VERY complicated.

Here is one short story published today- different as for one day gig rather than tour, but it illustrates the issues well:

Posted on Facebook today by the musician Robin Rimbaud:
An invitation to Spain has arrived to perform live for a music festival with my modular synth set up. Now the challenge begins - do I need a work visa for a one day visit? A carnet for £360 for a one day trip? etc. Like many independent artists there isn't a support network around me, with no manager, producer, publisher and so on. I need to resolve this all by myself.
Last year I could book a flight, travel there and back with ease. Now I need to complete the Spain Business Visa Application form, provide a work certificate, a letter of invitation from the company in Spain, provide bank account statements, then attend the Visa Interview in London (which means an expensive train journey to London and back), then pay €80 for the short stay visa. You are advised to do this six months before your travel!
Thanks to everyone who senselessly voted for Brexit and leave me essentially having to second guess every decision I now make. Given that 80% of my income previously came through working with the EU, this leaves me in a very compromising and harrowing situation. And I'm far from alone in this position. It's mostly likely that I will have to sadly decline this invitation, and all others in the future. It was nice while it lasted...
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  #29  
Old 04.02.2021, 15:35
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

From the shoes of a 3rd country national it's a easy to connect with the the feeling of not having a support network around me. Albeit, the issue about having to solve everything by oneself is pure emotion. Most people have to do deal with bureaucracy and read contracts by themselves, no managers or publishers. This forum is great example of how knowledge and experience is shared to help people, it's a support network. We do mistakes sometimes, but hopefully we learn from them.

I guess at some point emotions will cool down and the search of solutions will start. Thinking about how to make things work instead of repeating it's dead. After all, freedom of movement between UK and some EU countries only lasted from 1973 to 2020.
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  #30  
Old 04.02.2021, 15:42
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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Axa, some gigs they pass the hat, others they get paid small amounts to cover expenses, some festivals they get more. It is not a job contract, they are itinerant, and often have many instruments they will have huge problems getting over borders. Some are home-made, no bills, no price- some are antiques (like my friend's violin)- it is VERY complicated.

Here is one short story published today- different as for one day gig rather than tour, but it illustrates the issues well:

Posted on Facebook today by the musician Robin Rimbaud:
An invitation to Spain has arrived to perform live for a music festival with my modular synth set up. Now the challenge begins - do I need a work visa for a one day visit? A carnet for £360 for a one day trip? etc. Like many independent artists there isn't a support network around me, with no manager, producer, publisher and so on. I need to resolve this all by myself.
Last year I could book a flight, travel there and back with ease. Now I need to complete the Spain Business Visa Application form, provide a work certificate, a letter of invitation from the company in Spain, provide bank account statements, then attend the Visa Interview in London (which means an expensive train journey to London and back), then pay €80 for the short stay visa. You are advised to do this six months before your travel!
Thanks to everyone who senselessly voted for Brexit and leave me essentially having to second guess every decision I now make. Given that 80% of my income previously came through working with the EU, this leaves me in a very compromising and harrowing situation. And I'm far from alone in this position. It's mostly likely that I will have to sadly decline this invitation, and all others in the future. It was nice while it lasted...
All the ATA carnets I ever had lasted a year with multiple in / outs. Always been necessary for Switzerland.
https://iccwbo.org/resources-for-business/ata-carnet/
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  #31  
Old 04.02.2021, 15:44
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

Again, I don't get it. These rules have applied for non-EU nationals for just about forever. And now they apply to the latest bunch of non-EU nationals.

And???
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  #32  
Old 04.02.2021, 15:47
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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All the ATA carnets I ever had lasted a year with multiple in / outs. Always been necessary for Switzerland.
https://iccwbo.org/resources-for-business/ata-carnet/
I can recall when we needed these for our laptops whenever we travelled. More so to reenter Switzerland but also to take equipment to other countries.
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  #33  
Old 04.02.2021, 15:49
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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I can recall when we needed these for our laptops whenever we travelled. More so to reenter Switzerland but also to take equipment to other countries.
You still do for expensive kit in & out of Switzerland.

When I was working & living in the UK, I also needed an ATA Carnet to take equipment to France, always have for Switzerland!

Biggest cock up was when I was working freelance for a company in Geneva, I officially exported the kit & the PA smuggled it all back into CH as she thought it would be easier, very expensive mistake.
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  #34  
Old 04.02.2021, 17:07
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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Again, I don't get it. These rules have applied for non-EU nationals for just about forever. And now they apply to the latest bunch of non-EU nationals.

And???
and it is a massive pain for the latest bunch- who spent years building bridges with the nearest neighbouring countries, finding people and places who respected them and were prepared to give them a stage- just on their doorstep. Took them years and years to build up those valuable contacts and friends- who would welcome them and organise the stage venues for them, the buskers' festivals and other festivals - on their doorstep, right there across a little bit of water, and they could hop and hop from one to t'other- unhindered, no probs with instruments, etc. That was their life, and a life that took a lot of time and effort to establish. That's all. Surprised you are not able, somehow, to understand that.
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  #35  
Old 04.02.2021, 17:40
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

I do understand that. But what puts them ahead of other third country nationals? People that were never given the opportunity to make contacts or live the life.

It is what it is; UK nationals are no longer EU nationals. The world has changed; people need to accept that and get on with their lives.
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  #36  
Old 04.02.2021, 19:19
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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It is what it is; UK nationals are no longer EU nationals. The world has changed; people need to accept that and get on with their lives.
When I was a kid I always laughed when old people talked about 'the good old days'. What is worrying me as I am still laughing at those people even though they are only a little bit older than me or even younger !
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  #37  
Old 04.02.2021, 19:28
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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When I was a kid I always laughed when old people talked about 'the good old days'. What is worrying me as I am still laughing at those people even though they are only a little bit older than me or even younger !
It may have not been their age that made you laugh..
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  #38  
Old 04.02.2021, 21:47
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Re: UK/EU musicians, travel, visas etc.

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Axa, some gigs they pass the hat, others they get paid small amounts to cover expenses, some festivals they get more. It is not a job contract, they are itinerant, and often have many instruments they will have huge problems getting over borders. Some are home-made, no bills, no price- some are antiques (like my friend's violin)- it is VERY complicated.

Here is one short story published today- different as for one day gig rather than tour, but it illustrates the issues well:

Posted on Facebook today by the musician Robin Rimbaud:
An invitation to Spain has arrived to perform live for a music festival with my modular synth set up. Now the challenge begins - do I need a work visa for a one day visit? A carnet for £360 for a one day trip? etc. Like many independent artists there isn't a support network around me, with no manager, producer, publisher and so on. I need to resolve this all by myself.
Last year I could book a flight, travel there and back with ease. Now I need to complete the Spain Business Visa Application form, provide a work certificate, a letter of invitation from the company in Spain, provide bank account statements, then attend the Visa Interview in London (which means an expensive train journey to London and back), then pay €80 for the short stay visa. You are advised to do this six months before your travel!
Thanks to everyone who senselessly voted for Brexit and leave me essentially having to second guess every decision I now make. Given that 80% of my income previously came through working with the EU, this leaves me in a very compromising and harrowing situation. And I'm far from alone in this position. It's mostly likely that I will have to sadly decline this invitation, and all others in the future. It was nice while it lasted...
It does sound like a lot of paper work.
I understand the nostalgia and the "sorrow" but he/they'll have to adapt like everyone else. If I had a say in these matters, I would opt for simplified procedures.

Last edited by greenmount; 04.02.2021 at 22:02.
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