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Old 16.02.2021, 13:18
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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with respect i see it differently. the tea party was an astroturf movement funded by the usual suspects that had a job to do and did it well. it wasnt built on small c conservative principles of upstanding behaviour but typical big C cynical Conservative politics of 'the ends justify the means' and 'by whatever means necessary'. it was a symbolic plot financed by the 1% who refuse to pay extra tax to fund public spending.

consequently trump's birther movement parallelled the tea party and the two forces coalesced when needed. all those tea party astoroturf protests at state capitols against democrat public spending and healthcare ... most of them birthers and trumpers, the sort of gun waving yeehahs by now everyones familiar with. the tea party worked with and around the birther movement. it provided positive material support. it didnt ever criticise the birther movement. they reinforced each other.

that the tea party would have no problem with trumpism as long as it served its purpose is in fact the story of trump's office. it's only when trump lost the election that the supposedly stately grandees of the party publically disowned him. but prior to that, all the while he had power and was able to enact (as he did) unprecedented amounts of favourable legislation for the 1% , they didn't complain at all (oc). they funded him!
I see your logic in your theory and think some parts are true. But one doesn't win elections simply by sucking up to 1%. And he did not lose the 2nd one by a really big margin, either, no matter what poles here get quoted, in terms of him "falling out of favor bigly".
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  #182  
Old 16.02.2021, 13:20
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I thought they called them Yanquis or Gringos.
I prefer Bohemian, for me. Still doesn't make sense to try to make this an expert, solely US passport holder debate.
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  #183  
Old 16.02.2021, 13:33
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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But that isn't the accepted meaning now. Tory = Conservative (big C). Whig was also a mildy derogative term, I believe. But also a handy shortcut descriptor for a certain political view.

It's like arguing that tart and trollop have the same insulting heft as they did originally.
I think it comes down to whether you use such terms in a neutral descriptive manner or as a slur.

Especially when accusing others of being uninformed.

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Folk just don't like Susie's view so are piling on in an attempt to shut her up... while being very free with their own views.
So far it has been Susie trying to shut us down. I never said she shouldn't be on this thread but she has said that of me several times.
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  #184  
Old 16.02.2021, 13:43
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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with respect i see it differently. the tea party was an astroturf movement funded by the usual suspects that had a job to do and did it well. it wasnt built on small c conservative principles of upstanding behaviour but typical big C cynical Conservative politics of 'the ends justify the means' and 'by whatever means necessary'. it was a symbolic plot financed by the 1% who refuse to pay extra tax to fund public spending.
Maybe it was more a mixture. Some intersection of genuine grassroots dissatisfaction and anger, who did not say no to some professional organizers and money and so to some extent got astroturfed. But there is a limit to how far you can astroturf people before they walk away.

In all likelihood, left wing movements such as BLM, Antifa, Greta Thunberg etc etc would not have got as far as they did without a good portion of astroturf. But saying that doesn't automatically invalidate everything they do and stand for.

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that the tea party would have no problem with trumpism as long as it served its purpose is in fact the story of trump's office. it's only when trump lost the election that the supposedly stately grandees of the party publically disowned him. but prior to that, all the while he had power and was able to enact (as he did) unprecedented amounts of favourable legislation for the 1% , they didn't complain at all (oc). they funded him!
It will be interesting to see how long the various left wing astroturf movements I mentioned above will stand by Biden, or when they will start stabbing him in the back (politically speaking).

It is much easier to identify with somebody who is doing well than with somebody who is maybe on their back foot. This principle is as old as politics itself.
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  #185  
Old 16.02.2021, 13:51
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I think it comes down to whether you use such terms in a neutral descriptive manner or as a slur.

Especially when accusing others of being uninformed.

C'est le ton qui fait la musique.



So far it has been Susie trying to shut us down. I never said she shouldn't be on this thread but she has said that of me several times.
Sure, but sometimes it is what is said - can be hard to get nuance in the written word.

Someone called her racist tho, out of nowhere, IIRC.
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  #186  
Old 16.02.2021, 14:13
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I see your logic in your theory and think some parts are true. But one doesn't win elections simply by sucking up to 1%. And he did not lose the 2nd one by a really big margin, either, no matter what poles here get quoted, in terms of him "falling out of favor bigly".
interesting points that @ MusicChick. I think I was more trying to counter the idea that the Tea Party would have in any way opposed Trump. in fact i totally agree with you that Trump is absolutely a political force and that without a doubt he has a HUGE fan base and the voters turned out for him. and yeh totally, the republiclan grandees who publicly disowned him are like a handful LOL. in fact because of what you say i think, this is why the tea party wouldnt be imo necessarily some kind of ‘civilized’ counter to trumpism. kinda because the tea party represented the donor classes interests and the donors need the voter turnout and so no-one obviously cares how they get that. racist birtherist fantasys and lies lies lies? hell yeh. whatever.

i think the tea party and trumpism would work together easily enough as the tea party did with birtherism, ie proto trumpism. i think i was just saying that small c conservative morality and the sort of handwringing against trumps dastardly behaviour that we have seen recently by some republican politicians … the fact that they didnt say anything for 4 years while trump served the interests of their donor class just says imo a lot. the moral posturing is entirely self serving and the only thing that matters to liz cheney or ted cruz is policy.

i think thats what i was trying to say. otoh im not sure anymore tbh bloody politicians. the amount of time i spend thinking about them compared to the amount of time they spend thinking about me. its almost pathological and tbh probably therapy is an option at this stage.
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  #187  
Old 16.02.2021, 14:34
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Sure, but sometimes it is what is said - can be hard to get nuance in the written word.

Which is maybe why it's better to ask and to clarify rather to go into a full nuclear red blobby and groan tantrum and telling people they shouldn't be on this thread.
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  #188  
Old 16.02.2021, 14:47
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Someone called her racist tho, out of nowhere, IIRC.
Don't you think it's a bit steep for somebody who goes around calling everybody and their dog a racist, to then turn around and tell people that they shouldn't be on this thread because of the place they were born?

Sometimes rubbish like that can slip out of people in the heat of the moment. But then she came back and said she can't be racist because she's a leftie.

And then she sends me a rude message to say I'm the one who's deranged.

I would happily let the mater slip, but she's the one who kept on coming back to it.
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  #189  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:00
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Which is maybe why it's better to ask and to clarify rather to go into a full nuclear red blobby and groan tantrum and telling people they shouldn't be on this thread.
I'm just giving back what you've always given me amogles. I would say a good 80 percent of my groans have come from you and Tom. It is clear you are a highly unreasonable person - other EFers have warned me and said I should block you as they have... but I wanted to keep trying.

The way you speak about "Dems" is far more derogatory than me referring to you as a Tory and MC as a Czech once - how in the world is that even derogatory? It is a fact! I am a Democrat and an American, how dare you call me so! As I've said before, and they call us the party of "snowflakes" ??

But congratulations, you & a few others have done exactly as you wanted to do and completely derailed this thread to a point that it is almost impossible for an opposing side to join the discussion.

I'm out - and I leave with one final fact, Trump is a loser and so are you if your support that lousy excuse of a human being.
  #190  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:21
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Maybe it was more a mixture. Some intersection of genuine grassroots dissatisfaction and anger, who did not say no to some professional organizers and money and so to some extent got astroturfed. But there is a limit to how far you can astroturf people before they walk away.

In all likelihood, left wing movements such as BLM, Antifa, Greta Thunberg etc etc would not have got as far as they did without a good portion of astroturf. But saying that doesn't automatically invalidate everything they do and stand for.



.
i'm definitely not invalidating the tea party project. any project financed by machinating industrialists (imo) are gonna have clear aims and will likely achieve them. the small government aims of the donor class tho, imo, are different from those of the voter class, ie in this instance different to the yeehahs going around shouting things about freedom at state capitols when obama is trying to pass healthcare. i think that the tea party just disappeared shows like you say that you can only astroturf so much, or maybe that the tea party served its purpose. obamas second term was framed entirely around THE DEFICIT. (not that anyone cared about that anymore when Trump won. cue historic tax cuts and f££k the deficit. Paul Ryan exits sharp left to whatever sinecure awaits him. win win! )

imo the tea party was the latest in a long line of ‘small government’ political movements like the jOhn Birch Society that morph under new names when needed in order to loud shout the talking points of prestigious right wing think tanks under the guise of an organic movement.

anyway … who astroturfed BLM then? what were their motivations? or greta, who astroturfed her? didn't she begin her story when she was still a wee nipper?
  #191  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:30
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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she came back and said she can't be racist because she's a leftie.
Lefties are sinister.

Tom
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  #192  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:33
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I'm pretty sure most Canadians, Mexicans and South and Central Americans refer to people living in the US as "Americans."
Believe it or not, we don't. As our contries are in America as well, we hardly ever use the term at all, as one doesn't really refer to the whole region at once. We do often refer to South America, thus use Southamericans. Or Centralamericans, or North Americans, but only when it refers to the whole sub-region, and not one or two countries at a time (what with the huge heterogeneity in our continent, I guess something similar would be the case in Oceania, where nobody ever uses the entire region's demonym). In Spanish the most commonly used term for US citizens is "Estadounidense", which would translate literally as "United-States-ians"

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I thought they called them Yanquis or Gringos.
Yeah, but that's quite derogatory, also in Spanish.
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  #193  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:43
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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interesting points that @ MusicChick. I think I was more trying to counter the idea that the Tea Party would have in any way opposed Trump. in fact i totally agree with you that Trump is absolutely a political force and that without a doubt he has a HUGE fan base and the voters turned out for him. and yeh totally, the republiclan grandees who publicly disowned him are like a handful LOL. in fact because of what you say i think, this is why the tea party wouldnt be imo necessarily some kind of ‘civilized’ counter to trumpism. kinda because the tea party represented the donor classes interests and the donors need the voter turnout and so no-one obviously cares how they get that. racist birtherist fantasys and lies lies lies? hell yeh. whatever.

i think the tea party and trumpism would work together easily enough as the tea party did with birtherism, ie proto trumpism. i think i was just saying that small c conservative morality and the sort of handwringing against trumps dastardly behaviour that we have seen recently by some republican politicians … the fact that they didnt say anything for 4 years while trump served the interests of their donor class just says imo a lot. the moral posturing is entirely self serving and the only thing that matters to liz cheney or ted cruz is policy.

i think thats what i was trying to say. otoh im not sure anymore tbh bloody politicians. the amount of time i spend thinking about them compared to the amount of time they spend thinking about me. its almost pathological and tbh probably therapy is an option at this stage.
You are correct he has a HUGE fan base. But as Trump conclusively proved last year there are not enough of them to give him a win. To win he needs to pull in voters from the middle and organising a storming of the Capitol is counterproductive.

The tea party started with a call for a reduction of the national debt of the United States and the federal budget deficit through decreased government spending. Unfortunately, even without COVID-19, Trump managed to increase the National Debt faster than Obama
Tea party leaders may be craven enough to support Trump in the future but whether their supporters and voters will reverse direction and support a confirmed spendthrift is not so likely.

You quote "as the tea party did with birtherism" but birtherism did not conflict with their basic principles so I do not see the relevance of your quote.
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  #194  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:44
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Lefties are sinister.

Tom
Ah, a Latin quote.
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  #195  
Old 16.02.2021, 15:44
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Lefties are sinister.

Tom
i think sinister means also something to do with the left side! im guessing you knew that already tho tbh
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Old 16.02.2021, 15:52
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Believe it or not, we don't. As our contries are in America as well, we hardly ever use the term at all, as one doesn't really refer to the whole region at once. We do often refer to South America, thus use Southamericans. Or Centralamericans, or North Americans, but only when it refers to the whole sub-region, and not one or two countries at a time (what with the huge heterogeneity in our continent, I guess something similar would be the case in Oceania, where nobody ever uses the entire region's demonym). In Spanish the most commonly used term for US citizens is "Estadounidense", which would translate literally as "United-States-ians"
Everyone I've known from Spanish-speaking countries in Central or South America usually uses the terms "Americana" or "Americano" to refer to people from the US, in Spanish.

Anyways, I think it's a bit silly to get hung up on it. When someone from the US uses the term "American" it's because the term has been used since the 1700's in that regard and is the way most Americans are brought up to refer to themselves and others who live in the US, and it is in no way intended to imply that Americans think of themselves as being the only inhabitants of the Americas.

There is even a page about all of this on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demony..._United_States
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Old 16.02.2021, 15:56
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Everyone I've known from Spanish-speaking countries in Central or South America usually uses the terms "Americana" or "Americano" to refer to people from the US, in Spanish.

Anyways, I think it's a bit silly to get hung up on it. When someone from the US uses the term "American" it's because the term has been used since the 1700's in that regard and is the way most Americans are brought up to refer to themselves and others who live in the US, and it is in no way intended to imply that Americans think of themselves as being the only inhabitants of the Americas.

There is even a page about all of this on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demony..._United_States
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Is naming black coffee as "Caffè Americano" also racist?
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Old 16.02.2021, 16:04
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

Another thread in the trash. Thanks again.
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Old 16.02.2021, 16:05
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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You quote "as the tea party did with birtherism" but birtherism did not conflict with their basic principles so I do not see the relevance of your quote.
i guess i was thinking that the tea party doesnt really exist now and has served its purpose which was trying to prevent the obama administration spend money on anything that didnt serve the interests of the donor class ie healthcare. the tea party just abstracted these interests into a general argument about 'the deficit'; this was just a justificatory excercise in intellectualizing the base pursuits of a class of people, and therefore make their interests seem general and good for the whole country.

the actual motivations of the tea partys donors was not that government spending shouldnt take place, but that it should be only for rich people. foe example when obama was in power it was all 'deficit this deficit that'. but then no more of that when trump is in power and it's about tax cuts. where did paul ryan go anyway?

once the republicans got power, the tea party was no longer needed coz aint no republican govt gonna spend money on the poor folk. that the tea party purported to be against the deficit was just a way to intellectualize their motivations according to abstract economic principles. i mean, you say trump increased the national debt and therefore doesnt align with tea party principles. im not sure. i think republican economic policies align with tea party principles exactly at the point when the tea party no longer existed ie when trump won. if the tea party was revived, yeh sure theyd support trump or whatever republican was on the ticket. IMO
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Old 16.02.2021, 16:10
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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A Friday thought
Is naming watery black coffee as "Caffè Americano" also racist?
FTFY.

Tom
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