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  #201  
Old 16.02.2021, 16:17
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Ah, a Latin quote.
Or Italian.

Or old English:

"sinister in British English
(ˈsɪnɪstə )
adjective
1. threatening or suggesting evil or harm; ominous
a sinister glance
2. evil or treacherous, esp in a mysterious way
3. (usually postpositive) heraldry
of, on, or starting from the left side from the bearer's point of view and therefore on the spectator's right
4. archaic
located on the left side
5. archaic
(of signs, omens, etc) unfavourable"

Tom
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  #202  
Old 16.02.2021, 16:54
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Believe it or not, we don't.
Obviously, you don't understand your own country, language and culture as well as an US citizen does! Why are you even in this thread? This is reserved only for US passport holders and Green Card holders are allowed to read, but not comment.
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  #203  
Old 16.02.2021, 17:00
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

Both terms are used.

https://www.spanishdict.com/answers/...-united-states


Last edited by Pancakes; 16.02.2021 at 17:43.
  #204  
Old 16.02.2021, 17:09
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Which is maybe why it's better to ask and to clarify rather to go into a full nuclear red blobby and groan tantrum and telling people they shouldn't be on this thread.
Better not expect RufusB to get that. She'll immediately seize the opportunity to claim superiority when you ask (someone else, no less) for clarfication, whether she actually is or not.
  #205  
Old 16.02.2021, 17:18
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Better not expect RufusB to get that. She'll immediately seize the opportunity to claim superiority when you ask (someone else, no less) for clarfication, whether she actually is or not.



What a piece of work is man.
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  #206  
Old 16.02.2021, 17:33
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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i'm definitely not invalidating the tea party project. any project financed by machinating industrialists (imo) are gonna have clear aims and will likely achieve them. the small government aims of the donor class tho, imo, are different from those of the voter class, ie in this instance different to the yeehahs going around shouting things about freedom at state capitols when obama is trying to pass healthcare. i think that the tea party just disappeared shows like you say that you can only astroturf so much, or maybe that the tea party served its purpose. obamas second term was framed entirely around THE DEFICIT. (not that anyone cared about that anymore when Trump won. cue historic tax cuts and f££k the deficit. Paul Ryan exits sharp left to whatever sinecure awaits him. win win! )

I don't think the Tea Party was "machinated by industrialists". At best some "industrialists" (insert term of choice) thought it was a useful movement. And not all of the politically active 1% are right wing. Look at Bill Gates or Soros for example. They are also trying to change the world according to their own wishes and ideals by supporting groups and initiatives who appear useful to them. They are swimming in the grey area between genuine philantropy and serving their own objectives. In other words, rich people trying to astroturf happens on both sides of the political spectrum.

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anyway … who astroturfed BLM then? what were their motivations? or greta, who astroturfed her? didn't she begin her story when she was still a wee nipper?
quite a lot of people did quite well out of these movements, politically?
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  #207  
Old 16.02.2021, 18:05
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

As we overpopulate the planet, exhaust resources, and destroy ecosystems, the centre of first-world politics is largely shifting slowly right.., but the right is getting smaller (less rich people, more poor people).

On a level playing field, the Dems have a numbers advantage. As the usual GOP tools of voter suppression and gerrymandering lose their effectiveness they became desperate. Enter Trump. So the GOP broke the glass, pulled the "race" lever and sold their souls to the devil (and threw in their spines for free).

Problem is, how can you get people to believe a group of old white men, the most inherently privileged group in society, as radical? So they keep the high ground.

Any "democracy"'s political situation says less about who its politicians are, but more about who its voters are.
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  #208  
Old 16.02.2021, 18:19
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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As we overpopulate the planet, exhaust resources, and destroy ecosystems, the centre of first-world politics is largely shifting slowly right.., but the right is getting smaller (less rich people, more poor people).
One must not be rich to be a rightist. Just being dumb is enough.
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  #209  
Old 16.02.2021, 18:42
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Former President Donald Trump and attorney Rudy Giuliani are being accused of conspiring with the far-right groups Proud Boys and Oath Keepers to incite the January 6 insurrection in a civil lawsuit filed Tuesday in federal court by the Democratic chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee that cites a post-Civil War law designed to combat violence and intimidation by the Ku Klux Klan.

The lawsuit, filed by Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson in his personal capacity, is the first civil action filed against the former President related to the attack at the US Capitol and comes days after the Senate acquitted Trump in his impeachment trial.
Interesting, usually the burden of proof is lower in civil cases than criminal so this might go a long way.....
  #210  
Old 16.02.2021, 18:51
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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interesting points that @ MusicChick...
Ta.

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i think the tea party and trumpism..
I think reducing reasons of Trump's popularity to "trumpism" is going to reinforce his support.

I will not dig into tea party coz I don't know enough.

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..the fact that they didnt say anything for 4 years while trump served the interests of their donor class just says imo a lot.
I think it does says a lot. I would question how genuine this sudden switch was and how they thought they will all of a sudden benefit.

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i think thats what i was trying to say. otoh im not sure anymore tbh bloody politicians. the amount of time i spend thinking about them compared to the amount of time they spend thinking about me. its almost pathological and tbh probably therapy is an option at this stage.
This all is a luxury of a democratic world. Enjoy thinking about available choice even if it is not ideal. I do not consider thinking about stuff and debating is pathological. I think trying to reduce opponents in an unfair way as we see in politics and sometimes here, is pathological - for the reason of their origin or other. I haven't seen you doing that.

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Obviously, you don't understand your own country, language and culture as well as an US citizen does! Why are you even in this thread? This is reserved only for US passport holders and Green Card holders are allowed to read, but not comment.
Lol.

I know more yanks who are sick of US politics than those who walk around saying "I don't want your opinion on US politics because you aren't American".
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  #211  
Old 16.02.2021, 20:12
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I don't think the Tea Party was "machinated by industrialists". At best some "industrialists" (insert term of choice) thought it was a useful movement. And not all of the politically active 1% are right wing. Look at Bill Gates or Soros for example. They are also trying to change the world according to their own wishes and ideals by supporting groups and initiatives who appear useful to them. They are swimming in the grey area between genuine philantropy and serving their own objectives. In other words, rich people trying to astroturf happens on both sides of the political spectrum.



quite a lot of people did quite well out of these movements, politically?
well i dunno, im hard pressed to think of any examples of bill gates advocating left wing economics anywhere. tbh i doubt if hes given a dime to any left wing advocacy group. im not dissing him btw, thats up to him, i just would be very surprised. maybe i missed it but id think i was dreaming if i heard bill gates advocate for getting taxed more. silicon valley is like an engine of libertarian capitalism.

also, assuming monopoly is the fantasy end point of capitalist players, bill gates stepped up to the plate and became the world's richest man like a legend. everybody knows his monopoly story. round of applause and all that but for sure his economics are right wing. you cant be the world's richest man and not be, surely right? like you cant be in the 1% and not be politically active? just by being that person?

also just saying but imo philanthropy doesnt equal left wing economics. i think if the world depends on rich men's fickle largesse, its the opposite of progressivism. probably in fact philanthropy in many ways is necessary because of the right wing economic structures of the world that i have no doubt bill gates has subsidised one way or another.

btw do you mind if i ask you again about the funders for BLM and greta? im not being funny! just want to know. who benefited etc?
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  #212  
Old 16.02.2021, 20:47
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Everyone I've known from Spanish-speaking countries in Central or South America usually uses the terms "Americana" or "Americano" to refer to people from the US, in Spanish.

Anyways, I think it's a bit silly to get hung up on it. When someone from the US uses the term "American" it's because the term has been used since the 1700's in that regard and is the way most Americans are brought up to refer to themselves and others who live in the US, and it is in no way intended to imply that Americans think of themselves as being the only inhabitants of the Americas.

There is even a page about all of this on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demony..._United_States
Not sure about them but most Europeans call only the USA citizens "Americans". I know, it's silly and I get now that maybe it's unfair and even frustrating for the others, but it's like that.

OK, sorry for the intermezzo. Back to post-Trump era.

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Oh Tom...
.
He didn't mean it, he's just thinking in Italian....I hope.
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  #213  
Old 16.02.2021, 21:17
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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One must not be rich to be a rightist. Just being dumb is enough.

True, but the two are not mutually exclusive.
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  #214  
Old 16.02.2021, 23:46
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

On the EF it is not always easy to tell whether a question is honest and genuine, or whether somebody is trying to pull me into the next mudfight.

But I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and answering your questions straightly and directly and in good faith.

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well i dunno, im hard pressed to think of any examples of bill gates advocating left wing economics anywhere. tbh i doubt if hes given a dime to any left wing advocacy group. im not dissing him btw, thats up to him, i just would be very surprised. maybe i missed it but id think i was dreaming if i heard bill gates advocate for getting taxed more. silicon valley is like an engine of libertarian capitalism.
Maybe there is a question of defining the political compass here. But being libertarian and even being capitalist is not a yes / no thing but there is a spectrum.

I don't think Bill Gates is a cynic. I think he genuinely believes he is helping a lot of people and making the world a better place. I'm not going to claim to be an expert on what Bill Gates does or does not believe. But I think that even if he is pro-market in the economic sense, he is quite left wing in many other senses.

I also named the example of George Soros. Soros clearly got rich by manipulating the market smart investments, so that would also make him right wingish economically, but the causes he supports with his money are all politically left as far as I can see. Including supporting groups who actively oppose capitalism. So if you want to be a cynic here, maybe he thinks it's OK for him to get rich like that but not for others.

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also, assuming monopoly is the fantasy end point of capitalist players, bill gates stepped up to the plate and became the world's richest man like a legend. everybody knows his monopoly story. round of applause and all that but for sure his economics are right wing. you cant be the world's richest man and not be, surely right? like you cant be in the 1% and not be politically active? just by being that person?
I don't think working towards a monopoly is a typical right wing thing. It's human. Who wants to have to deal with competition when you can have the playing field to yourself? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if governments and government regulations have created more monopolies than the private sector ever could. And monopolies are IMHO a bad thing as they provide a space in which the people in command can be off their guard and becomes increasingly inefficient (not always as a rule, but often as a tendency). Which is actually the problem in many of the sectors controlled by governments.

My idea of capitalism isn't a capitalism of big monopolies but a capitalism of smaller entities, with initiative and freedom for people to try out something different. Not just economically but in all walks of life. I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on just the economics to the detriment of the other things happening in society. I thus don't have much sympathy for big corporations and mega rich people trying to use their money and influence to press their will onto others, or trying to re-write the rules of the market to their advantage, or trying to tell us what is right and what is wrong. I'm saying this as a disclaimer just in case that isn't clear. So my apologies if that was obvious.

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also just saying but imo philanthropy doesnt equal left wing economics.
I agree. But certain left-wing philanthropists got rich by playing the market, and now that they're rich they chose to oppose it. Of course that is their right and anybody may change their mind later on in life. So I would propose that maybe right wing concepts helped them get rich, but that doesn't make them right wing by definition.

All of us in life have to a greater or lesser extent benefitted from things that we don't necessarily approve of wholeheartedly. Having benefitted from something is no proof that we support it.

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i think if the world depends on rich men's fickle largesse, its the opposite of progressivism. probably in fact philanthropy in many ways is necessary because of the right wing economic structures of the world that i have no doubt bill gates has subsidised one way or another.
I am a big believer in the role of charity, both personal and organized, and that the more advantaged among us have a moral duty to help the less advantaged, each to their ability. But if too much philanthropic power is concentrated in too few hands, they tend to use that power to one sidedly support initiatives with a certain ideology. And this is the opposite of a free world.

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btw do you mind if i ask you again about the funders for BLM and greta? im not being funny! just want to know. who benefited etc?
Let me start off with a little example. I used to be big fan of a certain charitable organization who I thought were doing good work. I won't name them here but you can probably think of many similar organizations. Well, in their email newsletter and on their facebook page they were continuously bashing right wing organizations (even though this was nominally a non politically-aligned charity) and this got worse over time. I wouldn't have joined if they had always been like that. They would bash some right wing party who were proposing something that was moderately in conflict with their aims, but if a left wing party did something that was far more against their aims they would either be silent about it, or worse still, find excuses.

So I wrote an email to the campaign organizers and said that i thought they were being unfair and that if they would be a bit more open to right wing points of view, and less partisan, more people from the right might actually join them, and they might become a truly cross-political organization. And there could be dialogue and understanding rather than labelling.

I got a letter back (yes, a letter, not an email, and about an A4 page of text, so kudos to them for taking the time) but they politely thanked me for my well thought out points of view but that no, they weren't going to change anything because agreeing with right wing points of view would be so totally against their principles etc etc. And if I didn't like it they didn't want my money and I was welcome to leave.

Well of course I had no right to expect them to change their platform due to one guy saying it. But I did some googling and found that several left wing politicians were represented in the charity's management. So in other words, well meaning charities are hijacked by people who see them as political tools.

In the recent BLM protests we saw Kamala Harris of all people saying she would bail out people who had been arrested. Now if you are at a peaceful protest and get taken in by the police due to a misunderstanding or over something minor, then you don't need bail. You probably get sent home the same day or the next with a warning. And even if you need to appear in court at some point, it will be a minor thing and they will send you a summons. People who even need a bail are people being held for more serious things, such as serious rioting. And bailing people who rioted is giving them a free pass to come back and riot again. If Trump had offered to bail Charlottesville protesters or those at the Capitol, we wouldn't be hearing the end of it. And even most right wing people would be angry IMHO. I think this is a clear indication of differing standards when holding the right to account vs the left.

And by the same measure, if BLM were truly non partisan, they might also be coming out for individual right-wing points of view in individual cases when these coincided with their own. Probably the BLM explanation of this would be that the right wing is totally racist so there is no overlap. But that is a cheap cop-out.

Greta may have been a little girl doing her thing in the early days. But I think it is clear that if you look at what has happened to the movement now, that it has been clearly politicized. And has benefitted from a lot of managed promotion. I mean, little kids all over the world do their thing for whatever cause it is that matters to them. But most don't get beyond the local newspaper.

But good on the organizers for pulling that off. It's emotional leverage. People are more likely to listen to some little girl saying her childhood has been ruined than some bearded scientist waffling about what his computer is telling us. And the left wing has obviously been better at pulling this type of thing off than the right.

It is no secret that people like George Soros do dish out money to political activist organizations and that BLM has been among the recipients. Now I'm not one of those people who has a knee-jerk reaction and think they have seen the devil in person when they hear the name of Soros. I fully acknowledge that he has done some good as well and that he is probably well meaning by and large. I have a friend who even got a scholarship from his foundation. But I am critical of one single person having so much global political influence.

Last edited by amogles; 17.02.2021 at 00:12.
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Old 17.02.2021, 00:11
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

I have no desire to engage in a “mud fight” but after reading this, I have to disagree with your understanding of the US legal system. There are countless references to criminal justice disparities online.

Black and Brown people are treated differently by police. They are arrested more often, the charges are different, and yes, they are more likely to require bail. Criminal justice in the US is not colorblind. I guess that’s the point of BLM.

Systematic racism exists in the US, Black people are 4 times more likely to be arrested than whites. Are they 4 times more criminal? They are more frequently shot at, pulled over and detained by police than white people.

I think the appropriate divide here is via color, not left versus right.

That’s all I want to say.


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In the recent BLM protests we saw Kamala Harris of all people saying she would bail out people who had been arrested. Now if you are at a peaceful protest and get taken in by the police due to a misunderstanding or over something minor, then you don't need bail. You probably get sent home the same day or the next with a warning. And even if you need to appear in court at some point, it will be a minor thing and they will send you a summons. People who even need a bail are people being held for more serious things, such as serious rioting. And bailing people who rioted is giving them a free pass to come back and riot again. If Trump had offered to bail Charlottesville protesters or those at the Capitol, we wouldn't be hearing the end of it. And even most right wing people would be angry IMHO. I think this is a clear indication of differing standards when holding the right to account vs the left.
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Old 17.02.2021, 00:56
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

Bromance is definitely over
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Former President Trump on Tuesday unloaded on Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) and vowed to back challengers to lawmakers who have crossed him, foretelling a brutal primary season for divided Republicans.

Trump’s statement, which was released through his Save America super PAC, blames McConnell for the GOP’s 2020 Senate losses.

“Mitch is a dour, sullen, and unsmiling political hack"
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Old 17.02.2021, 02:12
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

yeh course im sincere. who wouldnt be. btw


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I think it's a mistake to concentrate too much on just the economics to the detriment of the other things happening in society. I thus don't have much sympathy for big corporations and mega rich people trying to use their money and influence to press their will onto others, or trying to re-write the rules of the market to their advantage, or trying to tell us what is right and what is wrong. .
you lefty!

about the blm and greta stuff … interesting stuff tbh. i dunno tho, i have to say i think you make a false equivalence when you compare the far right demonstrations and those of blm. i think theyre a bit apples and oranges!

it seems to me that the far right demos, inasmuch as they had a manifesto, advocated all sorts of hatred towards specific others that would ideally to them be expressed in a better society based on old world hierarchies and disciplined with state sanctioned violence. in their opinion the supposed vital differences between races and genders should be manifest in how a society is ordered. you could therefore say it’s undemocratic, unconstitutional, illegal. probably 99% of all domestic terrorists in the usa have blathered some aspects of this kind of world view before their killing spree (citation needed!). definitely none of them have been like ‘im about to go and kill a hundred people because peace man rainbows’

BLM otoh are for protecting democracy and are against police brutality. theyre not advocating for illegal violence against certain demographics. they’re advocating for in fact the police to act according to the law and to democracy. both are political movements i guess, but thats about where the comparisons end.

and tbf theyve got a lot to say about the criminal justice system. i dont think its as easy as suggesting the usa justice system deals with people sincerely. thats a whole topic blm discuss and what @ennui says above.

also kamala harris is VP. in an oliogarchical system like the usa, with its avenues of power well guarded, you dont get to become VP if youre a radical. shes spent her career prosecuting criminals for the US justice system. im sure shes a nice and interesting lady but just coz she was repping BLM last summer for political ends, doesnt mean she's not down with the tough guys.
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Old 17.02.2021, 09:07
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Bromance is definitely over
McConnell should take a lesson from Breaking Bad: No.half.measures.

Having said that, he will probably lose his minority leadership and just sit out his last six year term before going out to graze on good ol' 'tucky blue grass.
  #219  
Old 17.02.2021, 09:51
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Obviously, you don't understand your own country, language and culture as well as an US citizen does! Why are you even in this thread? This is reserved only for US passport holders and Green Card holders are allowed to read, but not comment.
Gaburko - apologies that you took offense, although you and I don't agree on most things, I would say you are more well informed about American politics than even most Americans are.

I am simply annoyed at certain individuals on this forum who think they are well informed, make ridiculous comments and completely derail a useful thread. (i.e. amogle's complete lack of understanding of the US legal system & George Soros bla bla bla, MC declaring that Churchill/Brits caused CZE untold suffering etc.)

I've made my comments rather clear, but people always want to be offended about something.
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Old 17.02.2021, 10:12
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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It is no secret that people like George Soros do dish out money to political activist organizations and that BLM has been among the recipients. Now I'm not one of those people who has a knee-jerk reaction and think they have seen the devil in person when they hear the name of Soros. I fully acknowledge that he has done some good as well and that he is probably well meaning by and large. I have a friend who even got a scholarship from his foundation. But I am critical of one single person having so much global political influence.
I'm not one of the people who have an allergic reaction to this name either but I agree with you on this one. I am critical because he's on an ideological mission and frankly a lot of people are fed up with ideological wars. Give them bread..!

Ideologies? We had. Next.
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