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  #221  
Old 17.02.2021, 10:18
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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He didn't mean it, he's just thinking in Italian....I hope.
Italian leftists are DEFINITELY racists.

Tom
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  #222  
Old 17.02.2021, 12:09
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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it seems to me that the far right demos, inasmuch as they had a manifesto, advocated all sorts of hatred towards specific others that would ideally to them be expressed in a better society ...
I guess it was a mistake to have brought up this example like that, as I should have foreseen that you might say that. And IMHO it's a diversion from the point at hand. I wasn't talking about the reason people were demonstrating or whether they were right or wrong to do so, but I was talking about the reaction thereto. A justice system needs to be neutral and not politicized and should not be taking sides.

Maybe you see in BLM a protest against police brutality and inequality. But a lot of people on the right see in them a horde who want to tear down statues and rewrite history, with even figures like Lincoln and Churchill getting the chop. Okay, I don't want to get into that topic now. I think there is typically some truth in every so-called lie and some falsehood in every so-called truth and these topics can be real minefields. But in this case it's about different people having different perceptions of what's going on. And that in the eyes of some, being seen to sympathize with such an organization makes a future VP come across as a dangerous extremist. Maybe you might object that an incorrect picture of BLM is being painted by parts of the media. But BLM leadership themselves have done very little to disown the people who in their name have been promoting the crazy ideas, and even implementing them.

Just as organizations on the right have also not done enough to dissociate themselves from the crazies on the right. Maybe it's an "the enemy of my enemy" type of thinking.

In this case the left doesn't have the moral standing to call out the right on that as they clearly don't have their own loonies under control.

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based on old world hierarchies and disciplined with state sanctioned violence. in their opinion the supposed vital differences between races and genders should be manifest in how a society is ordered. you could therefore say it’s undemocratic, unconstitutional, illegal.
I think you are extrapolating from a couple of extremists to a lot of people who don't at all think that.

In fact I would venture to say that being right wing is all about the individual and protecting the individual and his rights and freedoms against any form of involuntary collectivization. So being right wing is being about as anti racist and anti any other type of discrimination as you can get.

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also kamala harris is VP. in an oliogarchical system like the usa, with its avenues of power well guarded, you dont get to become VP if youre a radical. shes spent her career prosecuting criminals for the US justice system. im sure shes a nice and interesting lady but just coz she was repping BLM last summer for political ends, doesnt mean she's not down with the tough guys.
This I don't contradict. But let me turn it around. The people in power, or close to power, always use more outlying organizations as leverage (the enemy of my enemy). So just as the Tea Party may have been cynically used by neocon Republicans for quite other goals, so BLM may be being used for quite a different goal. In this case (well, in both cases) just to get certain people elected.

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  #223  
Old 17.02.2021, 12:33
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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“Mitch is a dour, sullen, and unsmiling political hack"
With this, I can wholeheartedly agree.

And I think many people do, regardless of political affiliation.
  #224  
Old 17.02.2021, 12:36
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Maybe you see in BLM a protest against police brutality and inequality. But a lot of people on the right see in them a horde who want to tear down statues and rewrite history..
If you mean people in general, outside of the US - then it is not just people on the right but in the center, too.


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...so BLM may be being used for quite a different goal. In this case (well, in both cases) just to get certain people elected.
This. I think it is so obvious it discredits the good intentions and good cause and turns people away from the justified opposition.

Soros - nah. His school lost credit, completely. Due to imposed dogma, I forgot where and when it aired, in the edu world. There is no free lunch, I think it is naieve to consider all charitable acts to be altruistic, I think they rarely are. I support them because they are independent of the system, fast and economically smart often but it is better to inquire after the real motives.
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  #225  
Old 17.02.2021, 12:43
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Soros - nah. His school lost credit, completely. Due to imposed dogma, I forgot where and when it aired, in the edu world. There is no free lunch, I think it is naieve to consider all charitable acts to be altruistic, I think they rarely are. I support them because they are independent of the system, fast and economically smart often but it is better to inquire after the real motives.
I think at some point along the road he may have lost it and started drifting more and more into political extremism and clownism.

I went into his school in Budapest once and was reading some of the stuff on the notice boards. Topics of upcoming lectures and so. It was actually quite funny. But I regret involuntarily so. And totally disconnected from any form of practical reality. Made me wonder who would want to employ the alumni from such a school.
  #226  
Old 17.02.2021, 13:35
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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With this, I can wholeheartedly agree.

And I think many people do, regardless of political affiliation.
And he has too many chins.
  #227  
Old 17.02.2021, 14:38
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I think at some point along the road he may have lost it and started drifting more and more into political extremism and clownism.

I went into his school in Budapest once and was reading some of the stuff on the notice boards. Topics of upcoming lectures and so. It was actually quite funny.

Like? Gender studies? I read about that making Christian conservatives quite uncomfortable there..

I just think that that particular US accredited place was made to braindrain even faster, with very little investment. A bridge out? Although some grads are now Orbán's opposition. So charity became political campaign. I do of course like the fact that we are tallkng about schools.

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And totally disconnected from any form of practical reality. Made me wonder who would want to employ the alumni from such a school.
Báťuška Sóróš.

Let's get back to Báťuška Trump

I really agree with you on this:
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I think you are extrapolating from a couple of extremists to a lot of people who don't at all think that.

In fact I would venture to say that being right wing is all about the individual and protecting the individual and his rights and freedoms against any form of involuntary collectivization. So being right wing is being about as anti racist and anti any other type of discrimination as you can get.
  #228  
Old 17.02.2021, 14:45
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

In the purest sense, right wing individual believes in individualism to the extreme and a leftist believes in collectivism. That’s your supposition? So at the extremes neither would have any sort of prejudice.

On the right, it’s up to the individual, on the left it’s the group. All members of the group are equal, just as all individuals are on a level playing field on the right.

In practice, we know that prejudices creep in to a lesser or greater extent. If you think that gives the right a moral superiority vis a vis racism and discrimination, great. I’m not buying it.
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  #229  
Old 17.02.2021, 16:05
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Like? Gender studies? I read about that making Christian conservatives quite uncomfortable there..
More like, "how racial discrimination in the US causes political corruption in EE", or "why we cannot have true feminism in America if we don't first kick the Israeils out of the West Bank". This sort of stuff.

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I just think that that particular US accredited place was made to braindrain even faster, with very little investment. A bridge out? Although some grads are now Orbán's opposition. So charity became political campaign. I do of course like the fact that we are tallkng about schools.
Some clowns blowing bubbles on the edge of politics maybe.

The real opposition to Orbán these days is a strange coalition of neo-nazis, too young to have any sense, and fossilized nostalgia communists, too old to have any sense. With a sprinking of greenies and grumpy lawyers thrown in and trying to hold the whole thing together. If ever they come to power they will be slitting one another's throats the very next day.
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  #230  
Old 17.02.2021, 16:13
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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More like, "how racial discrimination in the US causes political corruption in EE", or "why we cannot have true feminism in America if we don't first kick the Israeils out of the West Bank". This sort of stuff.
Global issues then.

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Some clowns blowing bubbles on the edge of politics maybe.

The real opposition to Orbán these days is a strange coalition of neo-nazis, too young to have any sense, and fossilized nostalgia communists, too old to have any sense. With a sprinking of greenies and grumpy lawyers thrown in and trying to hold the whole thing together. If ever they come to power they will be slitting one another's throats the very next day.
Orban will gain politically over swift vaxing.
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  #231  
Old 17.02.2021, 16:37
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Orban will gain politically over swift vaxing.
So far the main reason he keeps on getting re-elected is that he is delivering on economic growth and many people are getting visibly richer. Just ask your average taxi driver or small business owner. Orban likes to make statements about Christian values and historic destiny, and some people like that talk and others don't, but i don't think that's the talk that actually gets him reelected. He gets elected because of the results, because people see things changing for the better, The whole Covid thing has thrown the economy back by several years, so now it's all down to how fast it can recover. And that's not really a Hungarian question but a global question. The faster Germans start buying Audis and Mercedeses again, the faster Hungarians can get back to work.
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  #232  
Old 17.02.2021, 17:30
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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So far the main reason he keeps on getting re-elected is that he is delivering on economic growth and many people are getting visibly richer.
Ask any EE if they need economic growth, as a country. I think countries have their priorities and all EEs have that as a priority since they are far from wealthy. Trump didn't do too poorly in terms of economic growth. The rich ones may not see that because they do not need to.

There is always logic behind things..
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  #233  
Old 17.02.2021, 19:21
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Systematic racism exists in the US, Black people are 4 times more likely to be arrested than whites. Are they 4 times more criminal?
They are more frequently shot at, pulled over and detained by police than white people.

I think the appropriate divide here is via color, not left versus right.

That’s all I want to say.
Whether it's 4x, or something close to that, will depend on your metric, but the crime rate is clearly higher. Blacks are 5-6 times as likely to commit a homicide than whites (Wiki), for violent nonlethal crimes the rate is 3.5 times as high (OJJDP), whereas the arrest rate (for any reason) is 2.4x as high (BJS).

However, disparities don't prove racism, they're correlation rather than causation. That doesn't mean racism and discrimination don't exist, just that you can't validly draw that conclusion from disparities alone.

For instance, getting stopped in your car will depend on the state of your car as well as your driving. Black people are on average less well off than whites, so their vehicles will be older, in a worse state, and more likely to have some kind of defect that's decernible from a distance, which AFAIA is necessary (and will be used as grounds) to stop them. Plus, drug abuse is more prevalent among black folk so they may be more likely to drive high or intoxicated - guess what will happen if they pass a police patrol.
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  #234  
Old 17.02.2021, 19:37
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Whether it's 4x, or something close to that, will depend on your metric, but the crime rate is clearly higher. Blacks are 5-6 times as likely to commit a homicide than whites (Wiki), for violent nonlethal crimes the rate is 3.5 times as high (OJJDP), whereas the arrest rate (for any reason) is 2.4x as high (BJS).

However, disparities don't prove racism, they're correlation rather than causation. That doesn't mean racism and discrimination don't exist, just that you can't validly draw that conclusion from disparities alone.

For instance, getting stopped in your car will depend on the state of your car as well as your driving. Black people are on average less well off than whites, so their vehicles will be older, in a worse state, and more likely to have some kind of defect that warrants stopping them. Plus, drug abuse is more prevalent among black folk so they may be more likely to drive high or intoxicated - guess what will happen if they pass a police patrol.
Black people are more likely to be poor too, and poverty is related to crime rates.
It’s not enough to say Black people commit more crime without understanding why. So no, disparities do not prove racism. Some of your explanation has merit but your description of why more Black drivers are stopped by police is rationalization.

Although this is an opinion piece, I found this interesting.

https://www.google.ch/amp/s/www.wash...outputType=amp
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  #235  
Old 17.02.2021, 20:56
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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...... But a lot of people on the right see in them a horde who want to tear down statues and rewrite history, with even figures like Lincoln and Churchill getting the chop. .
That is not the point, they do not want to rewrite history; the history is accurate.
The problem is people revere statues to traitors and slave owners.

There are no statues for Lee Harvey Oswald or John Wilkes Booth for good reasons so why so commemorate Confederate generals who killed far more US citizens?
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  #236  
Old 17.02.2021, 21:12
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Whether it's 4x, or something close to that, will depend on your metric, but the crime rate is clearly higher. Blacks are 5-6 times as likely to commit a homicide than whites (Wiki), for violent nonlethal crimes the rate is 3.5 times as high (OJJDP), whereas the arrest rate (for any reason) is 2.4x as high (BJS).

However, disparities don't prove racism, they're correlation rather than causation. That doesn't mean racism and discrimination don't exist, just that you can't validly draw that conclusion from disparities alone.

For instance, getting stopped in your car will depend on the state of your car as well as your driving. Black people are on average less well off than whites, so their vehicles will be older, in a worse state, and more likely to have some kind of defect that's decernible from a distance, which AFAIA is necessary (and will be used as grounds) to stop them. Plus, drug abuse is more prevalent among black folk so they may be more likely to drive high or intoxicated - guess what will happen if they pass a police patrol.
It is not true drug abuse is more prevalent among black folk; that is in itself a racist statement.
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The 2018 National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH) is a comprehensive collection of data that details substance use in the U.S. by many different demographic markers.
When broken down by U.S. citizens with a substance use disorder in the past year aged 12 or older and race in 2018, we see that:

White: 7.7%
Hispanic or Latino 7.1%
Black or African American 6.9%
Asian American: 4.8%
American Indian or Alaskan Native: 10.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander: 9.3%
These percentages have been pretty consistent for over 20 years.
  #237  
Old 17.02.2021, 21:26
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

Totaly unrelated, i just like the sketch
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  #238  
Old 17.02.2021, 21:43
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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It is not true drug abuse is more prevalent among black folk; that is in itself a racist statement.


These percentages have been pretty consistent for over 20 years.
And, if you look at the different treatment of crack versus powder cocaine there is evidence of racism..

Here’s a quote from a Columbia University psychologist.

https://hub.jhu.edu/2017/04/19/carl-...y-race-forums/


Crack and powder cocaine are the same drug," he said. "People who were caught with small amounts of crack were required to serve a mandatory minimum of five years in prison, and a hundred times more powder cocaine was required for the same penalty. More than 80 percent of the people who were arrested and prosecuted under these laws were black, even though we know that black people didn't use crack cocaine at higher rates than white people in this country."
  #239  
Old 17.02.2021, 21:44
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Black people are more likely to be poor too, and poverty is related to crime rates.
It’s not enough to say Black people commit more crime without understanding why. So no, disparities do not prove racism. Some of your explanation has merit but your description of why more Black drivers are stopped by police is rationalization.

Although this is an opinion piece, I found this interesting.

paywall. please provide a synopsis
Merely trying to classify something as xyz, rationalisation in this case, is not an argument. Quite the contrary, inability to make a case and demonstrate inaccuracies is indirect confirmation.

No doubt, poverty is an important aspect. What are black grownups doing to reduce that risk? Single-parent homes is undoubtedly a, maybe *the*, major driver here as the risk of poverty is way higher. 3/4 of the births given by black mothers take place out of wedlock and 1/2 of the black kids grow up in single-parent homes, usually fatherless.

In what way does the black community help in that endeavour and avoid transfering the parent(s)' poverty on to the next generation? Kids are held back by drug-infested schools and communities, and normalised crime. Many kids who do show ambition will probably be bound back quickly by being bullied and called out for their "acting white".

You see, most of those problems are created by the black people themselves. Volutarily created and often intentionally, this can't be emphasized enough. Comitting a crime, selling drugs to your neighborhood school kids and not only infesting the next generation but keeping them from learning and growing up well, having unprotected sex, driving while stoned, are all choices. So is giving birth out of wedlock (in most states) and thereby having a single-parent household.

These points, too, are no excuse for racism to the extent it exists.
But poverty isn't proof of racism, and trying to blame others for the group member's choices doesn't improve the situation either. The BLM riots for instance are actually worsening the situation because businesses that get looted, ransacked, burned, or outright destroyed may well move on and and take the jobs with them.
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Old 17.02.2021, 21:51
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Merely trying to classify something as xyz, rationalisation in this case, is not an argument. Quite the contrary, inability to make a case and demonstrate inaccuracies is indirect confirmation.

No doubt, poverty is an important aspect. What are black grownups doing to reduce that risk? Single-parent homes is undoubtedly a, maybe *the*, major driver here as the risk of poverty is way higher. 3/4 of the births given by black mothers take place out of wedlock and 1/2 of the black kids grow up in single-parent homes, usually fatherless.

In what way does the black community help in that endeavour and avoid transfering the parent(s)' poverty on to the next generation? Kids are held back by drug-infested schools and communities, and normalised crime. Many kids who do show ambition will probably be bound back quickly by being bullied and called out for their "acting white".

You see, most of those problems are created by the black people themselves. Volutarily created and often intentionally, this can't be emphasized enough. Comitting a crime, selling drugs to your neighborhood school kids and not only infesting the next generation but keeping them from learning and growing up well, having unprotected sex, driving while stoned, are all choices. So is giving birth out of wedlock (in most states) and thereby having a single-parent household.

These points, too, are no excuse for racism to the extent it exists.
But poverty isn't proof of racism, and trying to blame others for the group member's choices doesn't improve the situation either. The BLM riots for instance are actually worsening the situation because businesses that get looted, ransacked, burned, or outright destroyed may well move on and and take the jobs with them.
If this is what you believe, further discussion is a total waste of both my time and yours.
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Not able to post a new thread danitimesdani Forum support 4 09.05.2012 14:41


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