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Old 19.02.2021, 01:13
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

This is not good
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6 Capitol Police officers suspended, 29 others being investigated for alleged roles in riot.
Imagine being a Dem lawmaker going to work in the Capitol on a daily basis and wondering if the Capitol Police officer you are walking past can be trusted.
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  #262  
Old 19.02.2021, 01:36
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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i think i see your point but just to say, when i said the blm protests were infiltrated and provocateured, i meant by cops ... federal and state! i kind of said it to show how the justice system seems to treat BLM, which hasnt been with much respect so far.

when you say otoh that provocateurs were in the capitol riots, do you mean btw the idea that it was antifa behind the capitol riots? maybe you didnt but if you did and with respect 1. the capitol stormers were openly plotting it on the forums for weeks 2. everybody there that (famous) day (that will be sung about over plucked guitars 200 years from now) was no doubt caught on some kind of camera and so 3. if there was any proof of antifa doing it, by now everyone on earth would know ... it would be paraded daily in the timelines. but still 8 weeks later fox news are like 'and oh yeh, antifa was behind it, course they were'.

antifa aren't magical smoke, everywhere and nowhere, they are on the government watchlists, will have files big as houses on them in all the intelligence services, will be infiltrated and etc etc. if any antifa organised it, they'd know.

also they are anti fascist. why would they consort with fascists? to make fascists look bad? its like the start of a joke: how do you make a fascist look bad?

or if in fact you meant not antifa but that the capitol stormers had cops in their ranks just like BLM, well they did indeed. but they were on their freetime. venting!
It seems you are making a lot of assumptions here and there are a lot of things we don't know. A lot has been suggested but not said and there are probably a lot of people who don't want the full story to be known. This is true of many things in recent history, and it is probably happening on both sides of the political spectrum. You say for example that all antifa agitators are well known to the police, and they have files the size of a house on them. But they are not arrested for any of this. So if this is true, the police has a reason for not arresting them I guess?

But this is veering increasingly away from the earlier point that antifa is an astroturf organisation like blm, created to help the political left, and kept on a short leash that has to side with the political left through right and through wrong. Are you aware of just one incident that antifa stood up against the left and for the right? No matter how fascistic the left behaved? What more proof do you need that they are an arm's length astroturf organisation?

As for your assertion that antifa would never side with fasciscts, this is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy as antifa has a bit of a track record of deciding ad hoc who a fascist is and who isn't. Anybody who is on their radar or who they want to pick a fight with is a fascist by definition. Despite which they themselves seem pretty fascistic to me. They are highly intolerant of those they disagree with, they are violent and glorify violence, they are convinced they are absolutely right all the time, they are pretty thick, and they stand for pretty fascist things IMHO. Especially when you use the word fascist in its earlier and ideologically better defined meaning, as people like Gentile used it.

And yet many on the left glorify them and fine excuses for them.

Last edited by amogles; 19.02.2021 at 01:52.
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  #263  
Old 19.02.2021, 01:42
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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I doubt his post Presidency will go so well as people forecast.
For example, there was a lot of pre-publicity about Trump joining Sean Hannity's show last night but there was very little about it in the media today, it did not even make the Fox News front page.
I don't know what Trump would stand to gain from joining Hannity. I don't even think the two would get on particularly well.
  #264  
Old 19.02.2021, 02:10
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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It seems you are making a lot of assumptions here and there are a lot of things we don't know. A lot has been suggested but not said and there are probably a lot of people who don't want the full story to be known. This is true of many things in recent history, and it is probably happening on both sides of the political spectrum. You say for example that all antifa agitators are well known to the police, and they have files the size of a house on them. But they are not arrested for any of this. So if this is true, the police has a reason for not arresting them I guess?

But this is veering increasingly away from the earlier point that antifa is an astroturf organisation like blm, created to help the political left, and kept on a short leash that has to side with the political left through right and through wrong. Are you aware of just one incident that antifa stood up against the left and for the right? No matter how fascistic the left behaved? What more proof do you need that they are an arm's length astroturf organisation?

As for your assertion that antifa would never side with fasciscts, this is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy as antifa has a bit of a track record of deciding ad hoc who a fascist is and who isn't. Anybody who is on their radar or who they want to pick a fight with is a fascist by definition. Despite which they themselves seem pretty fascistic to me. They are highly intolerant of those they disagree with, they are violent and glorify violence, they are convinced they are absolutely right all the time, they are pretty thick, and they stand for pretty fascist things IMHO. Especially when you use the word fascist in its earlier and ideologically better defined meaning, as people like Gentile used it.

And yet many on the left glorify them and fine excuses for them.
very interesting that tbh. id never thought of antifa as astroturf but maybe that's coz i am indeed a fan! i just love their name ... but i mean for example, antifa are also anti capitalist , you know, kind of anarchist and socialist and all that; and i dont think the dems for example represent a political left. the usa is so extremely capitalist that in many states even trade unions are illegal! where they're legal, they're very weak. its written deep into the american law books that business interests superceed government interventions in those interests such that govts can and will be sued if they try anything, and if they do try anything then business will always be backed by the supreme court. anyway, fair enough, i mean wow what a country! an absolute phenomena! but still ... my imagination isnt big enough to imagine anyone bankrolling antifa with even a hundredth of the budget of those right wing aligned groups like 'pro states rights, pro 'freedoms', pro guns, pro cops, pro all that other stuff'. i just cant see what capitalists with political motivations would want to bankroll antifa for. in fact i just dont think the left gets any bankrolling at all, which is why they have pretty much no political power anywhere in the world.

but maybe we come back to our convo about what is left wing anyway. we probably disagree on that. the dems to me are centre right.

btw i think maybe the cops havent arrested antifa because they havent done anything wrong really. i mean there was a big push by the republicans to make it a terrorist organisation, at which point watch out antifa. but you know how the intelligence agencies and state cops have intel on all the organisations deemed to be 'against the national interest' but that are able to exist in a country with sweeping freedoms and a rule of law. unlike say russia ... and what happens to protesters there. antifa are definitely fearless, but aint no antifa in moscow.

Last edited by ZurichLuck; 19.02.2021 at 02:22.
  #265  
Old 19.02.2021, 03:17
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

This conversation is getting interesting.

So thank you for discussing here in good faith.

Good on you. I'm not used to that any more on the EF.

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very interesting that tbh. id never thought of antifa as astroturf but maybe that's coz i am indeed a fan! i just love their name ... but i mean for example, antifa are also anti capitalist , you know, kind of anarchist and socialist and all that;
What does i mean to be anti-capitalist? I think capitalism can mean different things to different people. And probably if you ask people who are pro capitalist what they understand capitalism to be, they will give you a different version to those who profess to be anti capitalist.

Just as an aside: If you want to be a pedant you could say that fascism is a sub-form of sociaiism, or at least ideologically a cousin or illegitimate child. The original fascist movement in Italy split away from the Socialist movement over what were actually relatively minor differences. Like the Popular People's Front of Judea, who were just as much a bunch of splitters . So being for socialism in a broad sense does not necessarily prove one is against the concepts at the heart of syndicalism or fascism.

But the average antifa guy probably doesn't have a clue about history, and won't appreciate how thin the ice is on which he is standing ideologically.

Fun fact: In Gentile's day the fascist party actually said it was against racism and antisemitism, and criticized other parties for this. The socialist party was actually more racist than the fascists. That doesn't make them good by the way. they were still a despicable cruel and violent bunch. But try explaining that subtelty to a knuckle dragging antifa thug of today and he will probably kill you. It's so much easier to believe in absolutes and to deny the facts that don't fit in. And just let violence speak.

Anyway, this is a facscinating topic IMHO that is much more complicated than meets the eye.

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.. and i dont think the dems for example represent a political left.
This is a matter of definition and perspective. I might respond to that that Trump isn't really politically right as the right wing is against excessive government spending and intervention. But we apply labels in an approximate and imprecise sense. Sometimes we also use the labels of those we are conversing with rather than our own so they can follow what we are talking about. At least I do sometimes.

If you subscribe to the idea of the political compass (I am critical of it BTW, but I like it as a good starting point for discussions) is that the political spectrum is not just a left-right scale but two dimensional (in my view there are actually more than two relevant dimensions). But either way the traditional left-right thing is a very blunt and ineffective way to describe people or political positions. That said just as a caveat on the side.

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the usa is so extremely capitalist that in many states even trade unions are illegal! where they're legal, they're very weak.
Here I might reply that IMHO in a capitalist system nobody has any right to ban a trade union because doing so is an interference in the market. But nobody should have the right to force individuals to join a trade union either. If trade unions want members, they have to offer them a good reason to join.

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my imagination isnt big enough to imagine anyone bankrolling antifa with even a hundredth of the budget of those right wing aligned groups like 'pro states rights, pro 'freedoms', pro guns, pro cops, pro all that other stuff'.
Not everybody who is rich is on the right. There are activist millionaires who will happily bankroll such organizations. If you look at the way they act and organize there is a high level of organization in it which I think cannot be attributed to spontaneous discussions in back rooms, but reflect planning and organization and infrastructure worthy of a well-bankrolled organization.

The people doing the bankrolling don't even necessarily have to agree with antifa. They may just want the balance of political power to move over to the left slightly and see antifa as a useful tool in pushing that. Just as the same also happens on the right. You yourself said that the people who bankrolled the Tea Party for example didn't actually believe in the concept of small state, but wanted to weaken Obama or delegtimize Obamacare or whatever. In politics, the enemy of my enemy is often my friend. In fact I would propose that this is rule number one in understanding political alliances.

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i just cant see what capitalists with political motivations would want to bankroll antifa for. in fact i just dont think the left gets any bankrolling at all, which is why they have pretty much no political power anywhere in the world.
Maybe for certain definitions of left. I, on the contrary, see the left in power in the majority of countries and wielding the bulk of power. And maybe also better at winning because the left believes in collectivization and the right in individualism meaning rightists are more likely to disagree with one another. Obviously every rule has it's exceptions. And the simpler a principle, the more likely it is to have a flaw. This I would propose as maybe the second principle of politics.

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but maybe we come back to our convo about what is left wing anyway. we probably disagree on that. the dems to me are centre right.
I guess on this we need to agree to disagree. But a name is just a name. It shouldn't matter for the essence of what is at hand or obstruct the progress of the discussion.

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btw i think maybe the cops havent arrested antifa because they havent done anything wrong really. i mean there was a big push by the republicans to make it a terrorist organisation, at which point watch out antifa. but you know how the intelligence agencies and state cops have intel on all the organisations deemed to be 'against the national interest' but that are able to exist in a country with sweeping freedoms and a rule of law. unlike say russia ... and what happens to protesters there.
But AFAIK they didn't succeed in making Antifa a terrorist organization. So individuals who are under observation are being observed for individual reasons and not because they are antifa. Why are they not arrested? I don't know. But sometimes the police holds back on arresting known criminals because observing them helps the police learn more about their friends and networks, and this intelligence may be more valuable than taking down individuals with immediate effect. Thus the police may sometimes chose to hold back even if they have sufficient grounds for an arrest. I'm not saying this is the case. It's maybe one explanation among many that may be possible.

Last edited by amogles; 19.02.2021 at 03:41.
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  #266  
Old 19.02.2021, 09:47
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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the dems to me are centre right
So, same as the republicans then.

Tom
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  #267  
Old 19.02.2021, 10:23
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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..........So thank you for discussing here in good faith.

Good on you. I'm not used to that any more on the EF......................................

But try explaining that subtelty to a knuckle dragging antifa thug of today and he will probably kill you.
You are a parody of yourself.

Anti-fascists linked to zero murders in the US in 25 years

Right-wing extremists have killed 329 victims in the last 25 years, while antifa members haven't killed any

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Old 19.02.2021, 15:52
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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So, same as the republicans then.

Tom
There's nothing centrist about entrenched opposition to universal health care, slavish devotion to religion (just one religion, though), virtually unfettered access to firearms, reduction of government services and the overall size of government... to note but a few examples.
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  #269  
Old 19.02.2021, 16:14
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Sen. Lindsey Graham is heading to Mar-a-Lago this weekend to meet with Donald Trump
Acolyte going to worship at the shrine
  #270  
Old 19.02.2021, 22:11
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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There's nothing centrist about entrenched opposition to universal health care, slavish devotion to religion (just one religion, though), virtually unfettered access to firearms, reduction of government services and the overall size of government... to note but a few examples.
The dems, like virtually ALL USians, are also slavishly devoted to religion, hell, the country was founded mainly by religious nutters (many originally from Switzerland) who kept getting kicked out of civilised countries for being religious nutters!

Nothing wrong with guns, we have them here too, as well as reduced government services (CH: you want it, you pay for it).

And we certainly do NOT have universal healthcare here, just a requirement to pay for insurance that many people cannot even use!

(in 35 years my bills have got above the franchise twice, so all out of pocket, fortuantely the first ten years here it was not obligatory)

Tom
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Old 19.02.2021, 23:28
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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The dems, like virtually ALL USians, are also slavishly devoted to religion, hell, the country was founded mainly by religious nutters (many originally from Switzerland) who kept getting kicked out of civilised countries for being religious nutters!

Nothing wrong with guns, we have them here too, as well as reduced government services (CH: you want it, you pay for it).

And we certainly do NOT have universal healthcare here, just a requirement to pay for insurance that many people cannot even use!

(in 35 years my bills have got above the franchise twice, so all out of pocket, fortuantely the first ten years here it was not obligatory)

Tom
Nobody said that Switzerland isn't conservative, Tom! Least of all me.

For true centre-right politics, see Australia's current anti-immigration, pro-universal healthcare, pro-business-but-pro-COVID-19-lockdown government. Not very different to its main centre-left opposition. Note, Australia operates a multi-party system and coalitions are common, so compromise abounds. Extreme views don't get very far under those conditions.
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  #272  
Old 21.02.2021, 20:10
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

Seems Trump could ensure the Dems hold the White House, Senate, and the House forever.
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Nearly half of Republicans say they would abandon the party as it is currently structured and join a new party if former President Donald Trump was its leader, according to a new poll released Sunday.

A Suffolk University/USA TODAY Poll found 46 percent of Republicans said they would abandon the GOP and join the Trump party if the former president decided to create one.
  #273  
Old 21.02.2021, 20:36
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Seems Trump could ensure the Dems hold the White House, Senate, and the House forever.
Fortunately, what the nutters in the US do ceased to be relevant to me in 2009.

Tom
  #274  
Old 22.02.2021, 16:56
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

The net is tightening
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The US Supreme Court on Monday rebuffed a bid by former President Trump to shield his tax returns and other financial records from a New York grand jury subpoena.

The justices issued the order without comment or noted dissents.
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Old 22.02.2021, 18:08
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

These election lies will not go away
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The Supreme Court on Monday declined to review a challenge by Pennsylvania Republicans to the state’s extended mail ballot due date.

Three of the court’s more conservative justices — Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch — dissented from the court’s denial of review.
Better for the Supreme Court to stay out of such things as election rules which are delegated to the States in Article I Section 4, the Constitution says.

Edit: Dominion Voting Systems is suing MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell, a vocal supporter of former President Trump, in a $1.3 billion defamation suit.

Lindell was named the defendant in a suit filed in Washington, D.C., federal court alleging that he harmed the company's brand by disparaging the integrity of its machines by pushing unproven claims that they were used to steal the November election from Trump.
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Old 22.02.2021, 18:34
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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The net is tightening
Do you still have faith that he will meet any consequences for his decades of criminality? I wish I could...
  #277  
Old 22.02.2021, 21:31
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Better for the Supreme Court to stay out of such things as election rules which are delegated to the States in Article I Section 4, the Constitution says.

Rubbish, the whole point of having a separate judiciary is apply the democratic principle that those the enact the laws should not interpreter them. Admittedly the US has a weak democracy, but still they at least recognize the concept.
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Old 22.02.2021, 22:08
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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Rubbish, the whole point of having a separate judiciary is apply the democratic principle that those the enact the laws should not interpreter them. Admittedly the US has a weak democracy, but still they at least recognize the concept.
The appeal was from Republicans challenging a Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision.
Surely the Pennsylvania Supreme Court is part of the "separate judiciary".
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Old 22.02.2021, 22:53
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

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There's nothing centrist about entrenched opposition to universal health care, slavish devotion to religion (just one religion, though), virtually unfettered access to firearms, reduction of government services and the overall size of government... to note but a few examples.
I am very curious about your comment regarding size of government? In your view, am I to surmise that government should play a larger role as the populace cannot think for itself? We need a larger government to tell us how to live?

And your reference regarding "just one religion", there are many religions within the Christianity realm. To which do you refer?

Completely agree with your firearms reference; as for universal healthcare, well that sounds great in theory, but in a country as large as the US, not so easy to implement.

Obamacare helped not only those with pre-existing conditions (excellent!) and those who could not afford coverage but also, it benefited insurance companies who ramped up premiums and then some. Insurance companies in the US reaped ridiculous rewards - sad but true.

As a reference, we bought a "Silver Care" policy for our daughter in 2013 as she took a leave of absence from her uni/college in the US. At the time, we spent $264 a month for a pretty good policy. Fast forward, and my daughter is out of college and looking for a job in 2018. That same policy now costs $658 (with the same insurance company) except...the policy is reduced in scope and doesn't cover many things it had covered in 2014! And Obamacare did away with competitive bidding as we have only one insurance company which services our county. Prior to Obamacare, there were 3-4 insurance companies which offered plans in our area.

The US healthcare is a mess frankly. I am not sure how one can salvage it...
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Old 22.02.2021, 22:53
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Re: Trump - post Presidency thread

I am looking forward to see his tax returns, aren't you?
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