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  #21  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Just as an aside to the conversation as this is a reflection on the amount of facemask observance
in 2 countries I've been abroad to, for months in Spain and for at least 11 weeks in the UK
during the pandemic.

In Spain in the city where I was living & staying and for the entire area, I would say
facemask observance was well nigh at 98 per cent.
Basically everyone keeps a facemask in their pocket, ready to don the mask as soon
as they step out of the house or apartment.

Whether they are walking the pavements or streets in the city, town or village, many
people including the children are wearing facemasks and of course in the shops and
supermarkets as well. It's also not uncommon for people to steer a wide berth
from other people that are coming towards them on the street.
The only occasion where facemasks are less prominent are with cyclists.

Contrast this with the UK where people are very much of the opinion that
facemasks are unnecessary when taking a walk or going outdoors on their own
or with other members of the family on the street; and the only time they will
bother to put it on, is if they go into other peoples houses, enter a supermarket
or a store after which they will promptly remove & pocket their facemasks
after leaving the store or supermarket.
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  #22  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

I think that in the time of crisis, we need critical thinkers even more than any other time. The outcome of a team work or debate is better.

Wachtwoord isn't egotistical, the opposite.

Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
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  #23  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:36
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Wachtwoord isn't egotistical, the opposite.

Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
Sure they do. Contrarianist egoists quite deliberately stir up controversy by sharing unpoplular opinions. They're called trolls.
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  #24  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:39
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Contrast this with the UK where people are very much of the opinion that facemasks are unnecessary when taking a walk or going outdoors on their own or with other members of the family on the street; and the only time they will bother to put it on, is if they go into other peoples houses, enter a supermarket or a store after which they will promptly remove & pocket their facemasks after leaving the store or supermarket.
That's the way it works here as well.

Tom
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  #25  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:48
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think that in the time of crisis, we need critical thinkers even more than any other time. The outcome of a team work or debate is better.

Wachtwoord isn't egotistical, the opposite.

Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
I agree, the last thing we need is an echo chamber, Facebook groups for members provide that need.
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  #26  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:48
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Sure they do. Contrarianist egoists quite deliberately stir up controversy by sharing unpoplular opinions. They're called trolls.
Somehow I do not think that all different opinions to mine are trolls.

Nor do I think that they happen to be exceptionally contrarian. That would be a bit self-centered.
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  #27  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:52
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

I would like to know if they will also have a "Covid Antibody Passport" for those who have had Covid and dont need the vaccine. Before I have the vaccine I would like to have an antibody test to see if its necessary.
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  #28  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I agree, the last thing we need is an echo chamber, Facebook groups for members provide that need.
Before people's tolerance expires? I've heard of some purges.
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  #29  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:56
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think that in the time of crisis, we need critical thinkers even more than any other time. The outcome of a team work or debate is better.

Wachtwoord isn't egotistical, the opposite.

Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
That logic can be applied to any crank theory, doesn't it. Vaccinations in general is a prime example. Gotta love all the virology experts which seem to possess knowledge worth several PhD in online discussions, covid suddenly produced seemingly endless stream of those. On the other spectrum, it produced people who, for the better or worse, doubt anything coming out of current situation.

There is no 100% safe vaccine, there never was and never will be. I had a colleague in Monaco who died few years back after utterly normal refresh of tetanus vaccine, which he had few times before (every 10 years as we all have). He died from complications from it, after having no issues with it previously. One in 2-3 million chance, they said. Should this change our view on this and other vaccines? Absolutely not, don't let emotions run the show instead of the reason but folks seem to go cuckoo pretty damn quickly.

Discussions with otherwise smart moms who come up with ridiculous excuses why their healthy kids can't follow normal vaccination process. When i dug deeper, suddenly there was a story of a friend/colleague whose kid stopped talking after one of those combined child vaccines. Scary, but either you believe science behind vaccines or reject it, there is no middle path.

People like Wachtwoord wants to eat the cake of free traveling in covid/post-covid world without taking any risk embedded in protection not only himself, but also rest of us by being vaccinated. Hard to have any sympathy with it. By his logic, he never ever took any vaccine voluntarily. People seem to forget basic statistics when things get personal and its suddenly not just some numbers, but themselves. But nobody will be forcing anything, stay at home for 10 years (I expect more since virus didn't stop mutating and its not going anywhere). Or take a small risk which removes much greater risk for you and everybody else, and experience relative freedom that will be available hopefully soon.
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  #30  
Old 02.04.2021, 18:57
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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if everyone applied your standard, no vaccine would exist because 10 years prove nothing if no one gets it.
Partly true. That's why I said the last part was personal opinion (finishing phase 1, 2 and trials not really: that's normal procedure). Do note that you don't need vaccinations. Natural resistance will build up, especially if measures stopping the spread are decreased (the measures are slowing the build up of natural resistance in the population).

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We would also be stuck in lockdown as no one vaccinated = never enough ICU beds without massnahmen until at least 60% got covid. So years of lockdown.
I explained above why that is a strawman. One does not imply the other.

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You are free to do whatever you want, but it's an egotistical way of thinking that relies on others taking the vaccine to fix the problem instead of you.
Interesting viewpoint. The main reason I reacted here at all is that people are normalizing taking away the freedom of others, simply because they are being promised the return of their own (wrongfully taken) rights by a third party. THAT sound egotistical to me.

Let me cite the following:

Quote:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
When discussing history you always see people react in disbelief when learning how (for example) the German people acted around WW2 and everyone claims vocally they would never be part of that or even accept it. Then something similar happens in their own lifetime which they don't recognize as the same and they act exactly as the people did back then. Then sometimes later in life they understand but it's not helpful because the majority of the next generation(s) will not understand it sufficiently to recognize it when it occurs in their own lifetime in a slightly different form.

@MusicChick: thanks for the support. What's mainly's important is that people (truly) think for themselves. I shared what I wanted to share. People will either read it and consider it or dismiss it out of turn. Either way, if I continue to write in this topic all that will happen is fighting and personal attacks (it already started) so I'll withdraw from this thread now.

@NotAllThere Not what a troll would do, is it?
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  #31  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:03
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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As long as everyone has the opportunity to get vaccinated and there is an exemption for those who genuinely can’t, the I’m all for it.

A friend of mines Mum, was all “I’m not having the vaccine, it’s not been tested properly”, when my friend said “well you probably won’t be able to go on holiday then”, she was like “oh ok then I’ll have it!”
For what reason would anyone be exempt from the vaccine? There's multiple vaccines and none of them are live vaccines.
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  #32  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:05
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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That's the way it works here as well.

Tom
Seems logical to me.
Why would you need to wear a face mask when going for a walk or walking in the street unless it was in a seriously crowded outdoor space?
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  #33  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:06
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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That logic can be applied to any crank theory, doesn't it. Vaccinations in general is a prime example. Gotta love all the virology experts which seem to possess knowledge worth several PhD in online discussions, covid suddenly produced seemingly endless stream of those. On the other spectrum, it produced people who, for the better or worse, doubt anything coming out of current situation.
I think doubting is normal. Not sure what contributes more - "vax fast!" -> "oops we don't have enough vax!". "oops, some cantons do!". Or "masks are not proven to help" -> "oops, everybody, masks now! we got enough". Or, "all vax are ok" -> "oops, some may not be?". "We lockdown for a month" -> " we don't lockdown a year after, when cases are worse". "Kids aren't vectors" -> "now they are".

I think all media, WHO, govs - and often legit reactions to covid on EF can by that logic be called trolling, at some point.

The fact that it frustrates people, makes them doubt, or makes overly confident or the complete opposite - unquestioning - is logical. People are tired.

I understand what you wrote.

I think it is important to hear one another out. With some patience, if possible. That's more important than agreeing.
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  #34  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:09
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I would like to know if they will also have a "Covid Antibody Passport" for those who have had Covid and dont need the vaccine. Before I have the vaccine I would like to have an antibody test to see if its necessary.
That makes sense and I believe that what is intended.

Edited to add. I also believe it would be a repository for negative tests.
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  #35  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I had a colleague in Monaco who died few years back after utterly normal refresh of tetanus vaccine, which he had few times before (every 10 years as we all have).
Hardly "all", I've certainly not had one as an adult, though I MAY have had one when I was 8.

Tom
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  #36  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:16
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think that in the time of crisis, we need critical thinkers even more than any other time. The outcome of a team work or debate is better.

Wachtwoord isn't egotistical, the opposite.

Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
Having unpopular ideas needs a bit of courage and sometimes stubbornness. Saying something unpopular, getting unfavorable reactions, then telling people is mean and I better run from here......that kind of critical thinkers are not needed. Useful critical thinkers have a spine.
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  #37  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:18
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Before people's tolerance expires? I've heard of some purges.
Then the prodigal ex members return from their flounce.
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  #38  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:30
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Having unpopular ideas needs a bit of courage and sometimes stubbornness. Saying something unpopular, getting unfavorable reactions, then telling people is mean and I better run from here......that kind of critical thinkers are not needed. Useful critical thinkers have a spine.
I'm not going anywhere and will continue to read. My PM box is also open and I'll respond if its constructive (not to name calling obviously, what a waste of time that would be).

I just know from experience having a group discussion when the majority does not want a constructive discussion is not possible and the discourse will simply become repetious with a lot of talking in circles and some name calling.

No need to create a fight: I said my piece. It's not that what you think (as an individual) affects me in any way or form (and I'm sure the reverse also applies)
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  #39  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:51
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I'm not going anywhere and will continue to read. My PM box is also open and I'll respond if its constructive (not to name calling obviously, what a waste of time that would be).

I just know from experience having a group discussion when the majority does not want a constructive discussion is not possible and the discourse will simply become repetious with a lot of talking in circles and some name calling.

No need to create a fight: I said my piece. It's not that what you think (as an individual) affects me in any way or form (and I'm sure the reverse also applies)
PMs are not good. Anything to say better in public.

So, what's up with the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus and therefore not taking it ? There are three angles to this issue.

The first is the apparent low mortality. Mortality is low for the young because in the countries where statistics matter, hospitals are not full. In countries were hospitals have not been able to help everyone...the mortality for the young is a bit different.

Second angles is that even if I don't die, I can infect others which might die. This is the point of the future vaccine passport and the current tests required before traveling. The issue is not that some travelers die, but if they bring the virus once again, or new variants, to a region that already had the situation under control.

The third angle is...does the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus exist in significant numbers in first place? So, real people or some hypothetical case just for discussion? The only guy I know telling things like this is the older one (near retirement) in my job. Some stats, anecdotes, anything?

FWIW, I have the smallpox vaccine. Not a threat these days, right?
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  #40  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I had a colleague in Monaco who died few years back after utterly normal refresh of tetanus vaccine, which he had few times before (every 10 years as we all have). He died from complications from it, after having no issues with it previously. One in 2-3 million chance, they said.
I asked whether I was due for a tetanus vaccine jab when I last saw the my Doctor, as I knew I
must have gone a little over the 10 year renewal time and her reply was we don't do tetanus
prevention vaccine jabs anymore.
So whether the risks from tetanus have diminished or treatable upon infection without a need
for preventative measures like a regular 10 year vaccine jab, I cannot say.
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