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  #41  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:57
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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PMs are not good. Anything to say better in public.

So, what's up with the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus? There are two angles to this issue.

The first is the apparent low mortality. Mortality is low for the young because in the countries where statistics matter, hospitals are not full. In countries were hospitals have not been able to help everyone...the mortality for the young is a bit different.

Second angles is that even if I don't die, I can infect others which might die. This is the point of the future vaccine passport and the current tests required before traveling. The issue is not that some travelers die, but if they bring the virus once again, or new variants, to a region that already had the situation under control.

FWIW, I have the smallpox vaccine. Not a threat these days, right?
I see a serious obstacle in carrying an open and accessible document stating whether one had or didn't have Covid. Because if vax book will exist, it needs to log not only vaxing, but the fact that one might not need it. Not needing vax is impossible to record, because it can change rapidly, antibodies disappear. And, if the alternatives are only either "vaxed" or "had covid", that means there is potential obligation for all people to vax, in order to have fair chances to jobs, career fairs, etc. And some cannot vax. I do not think vax will ever be mandatory, since it puts government liable for side effects.

It is starting to sound like social credit.
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  #42  
Old 02.04.2021, 19:59
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Sounds perfect to me!!!

(Obviously kids exempt if not able to be vaccinated).
So with a family of 4 then 50% exemption, then a pointless requirement.
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  #43  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:08
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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So with a family of 4 then 50% exemption, then a pointless requirement.
And we are back to square one - "are kids vectors or not"..we just add "can kids vax or not". I think I understand wachtwoord's posts. We are jumping ahead, though. There isn't even enough vax reserve for the ones who would need it the most and fastest.

Deep down, I wonder if we'll know more in 6 months.
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  #44  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:09
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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PMs are not good. Anything to say better in public.

So, what's up with the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus? There are two angles to this issue.

The first is the apparent low mortality. Mortality is low for the young because in the countries where statistics matter, hospitals are not full. In countries were hospitals have not been able to help everyone...the mortality for the young is a bit different.

Second angles is that even if I don't die, I can infect others which might die. This is the point of the future vaccine passport and the current tests required before traveling. The issue is not that some travelers die, but if they bring the virus once again, or new variants, to a region that already had the situation under control.

FWIW, I have the smallpox vaccine. Not a threat these days, right?
For young people, are you joking? The incidence of hospitalizations among the young is minuscule at best. For any healthy youth to take a vaccine whose approval has been accelerated (read - long term effects not proven!) makes ZERO sense.

Those who are elderly or who feel compromised should absolutely be vaccinated if they so choose. Once vaccinated, those compromised should be protected against the virus...no? Or why else get the vaccination in the first place? The logic in your argument seems flawed. Either vaccines work/protect or they don't and if the CDC or WHO is not sure, then why call this a vaccine?

Once again clarity from the WHO and CDC, FDA and NIH is lacking.
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  #45  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:18
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I see a serious obstacle in carrying an open and accessible document stating whether one had or didn't have Covid. Because if vax book will exist, it needs to log not only vaxing, but the fact that one might not need it. Not needing vax is impossible to record, because it can change rapidly, antibodies disappear. And, if the alternatives are only either "vaxed" or "had covid", that means there is potential obligation for all people to vax, in order to have fair chances to jobs, career fairs, etc. And some cannot vax. I do not think vax will ever be mandatory, since it puts government liable for side effects.

It is starting to sound like social credit.
I don't think national governments can ban anyone. The list of cases and exceptions is near infinite.

But private business are a whole other story. Take something really basic like electricity production. They're even prepared, to some degree, for wars. During the 1st lockdown (March/April 2020) they had 2 week shifts at some critical infrastructure to minimize social contact. I fail to see how someone in there can tell no thanks to the vaccine.

Take air crews, any day any country can tell non-vaccinated crew members are not welcome and air carriers will happily comply.

I'm really curious about schools. If a teacher refuses vaccination, what can be done if all parents are against this?

I expect a lot of fighting for the sake of fighting, but not much can be done if the majority of people pulls in one clear direction.
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  #46  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:28
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I don't think national governments can ban anyone. The list of cases and exceptions is near infinite.

But private business are a whole other story. Take something really basic like electricity production. They're even prepared, to some degree, for wars. During the 1st lockdown (March/April 2020) they had 2 week shifts at some critical infrastructure to minimize social contact. I fail to see how someone in there can tell no thanks to the vaccine.

Take air crews, any day any country can tell non-vaccinated crew members are not welcome and air carriers will happily comply.

I'm really curious about schools. If a teacher refuses vaccination, what can be done if all parents are against this?
I totally see your points. The school situ is even more complex - what can a teacher do if one out of 25 pairs/homes of students disagree with being vaxed and we find out later that kids are carriers or that even vaxed kids can spread the virus. I see masks for a good chunks of time ahead. And that is rough. FFP2 are hard to wear for long time..

The examples you mentioned are good examples. But then there are so many other "important" job and all businesses will eventually require it. Which leaves those unable to vax, out of chances, professionally. What will we have - positive discrimination? You cannot oblige anyone to vax if they have serious reasons against it. But to outcast them? And all this is before we get used to mutations and vax renewals. People are already "encouraged" to take a flu jab, to not miss at work. I am not so sure that they need the once a year flu jabs, if they aren't in any great risk or often sick.
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  #47  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:31
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Until everyone who wants the vaccine, gets them, this is all moot.

But I suspect the anti-vaxers will not be happy with the outcome.
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  #48  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:35
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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PMs are not good. Anything to say better in public.

So, what's up with the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus and therefore not taking it ? There are three angles to this issue.

The first is the apparent low mortality. Mortality is low for the young because in the countries where statistics matter, hospitals are not full. In countries were hospitals have not been able to help everyone...the mortality for the young is a bit different.

Second angles is that even if I don't die, I can infect others which might die. This is the point of the future vaccine passport and the current tests required before traveling. The issue is not that some travelers die, but if they bring the virus once again, or new variants, to a region that already had the situation under control.

The third angle is...does the young people that consider the vaccine is more risky than the virus exist in significant numbers in first place? So, real people or some hypothetical case just for discussion? The only guy I know telling things like this is the older one (near retirement) in my job. Some stats, anecdotes, anything?

FWIW, I have the smallpox vaccine. Not a threat these days, right?
The bottom line with the Covid prevention vaccination program is that even though the vaccines
are not a 100 per cent safeguard from you contracting and becoming serious ill or dying
from Covid19 - you have to look at the bigger picture and this is ( whatever the criticism )
its the roadmap out of lockdowns, restrictions, travel bans and a return to a better form of normality.

By taking the vaccine your not only giving yourself a 90 to 95 per cent of chance of not contracting
and becoming seriously affected by the virus; your also paying your debt to society and that debt
is to ease the burden on the nations health services, hospitals and ICU's ( Intensive care units )
from being overwhelmed by Covid-19 patients; to the point that all other urgent and life saving
treatment is sidelined, to the point that other people die or are dying unnecessarily for want
of a hospital bed.

In conclusion your actions and those of others in taking the vaccine for the greater good,
can undoubtedly be an example for others to follow suit.
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Surely the time has come for Boris to 'circle the wagons' for a bit of herd immunity ?
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  #49  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:39
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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The examples you mentioned are good examples. But then there are so many other "important" job and all businesses will eventually require it. Which leaves those unable to vax, out of chances, professionally. What will we have - positive discrimination? You cannot oblige anyone to vax if they have serious reasons against it. But to outcast them? And all this is before we get used to mutations and vax renewals. People are already "encouraged" to take a flu jab, to not miss at work. I am not so sure that they need the once a year flu jabs, if they aren't in any great risk or often sick.
I see that situation of out of chances professionally quite frequently. Considering the work laws in CH where no reason is needed to end a contract, outcasts have existed, exist and will exist. If anyone is planning to put a fight against the vaccine in the job environment, we're in the wrong country.
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  #50  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:45
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I see that situation of out of chances professionally quite frequently. Considering the work laws in CH where no reason is needed to end a contract, outcasts have existed, exist and will exist.
So creating extra special disability fund for those who can't leave home to not catch covid or not spread it and cannot vax?

Then what John wrote is so true - what's the Covid Passport good for if the vax protects 90-95%?

Family in active medical duty vaxed and got a nasty Covid infection a month later. What would be in the book..StrainX vaxed, StrainY infected?
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  #51  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:46
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I asked whether I was due for a tetanus vaccine jab when I last saw the my Doctor, as I knew I
must have gone a little over the 10 year renewal time and her reply was we don't do tetanus
prevention vaccine jabs anymore.
So whether the risks from tetanus have diminished or treatable upon infection without a need
for preventative measures like a regular 10 year vaccine jab, I cannot say.
Your doctor is clearly an avid reader of Clinical Infectious Diseases. And let's face it, who isn't?
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  #52  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:48
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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So creating extra special disability fund for those who can't leave home to not catch covid or not spread it and cannot vax?
I'd love to see the SVP/UDC promoting that disability fund
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  #53  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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That logic can be applied to any crank theory, doesn't it. Vaccinations in general is a prime example. Gotta love all the virology experts which seem to possess knowledge worth several PhD in online discussions, covid suddenly produced seemingly endless stream of those. On the other spectrum, it produced people who, for the better or worse, doubt anything coming out of current situation.

There is no 100% safe vaccine, there never was and never will be. I had a colleague in Monaco who died few years back after utterly normal refresh of tetanus vaccine, which he had few times before (every 10 years as we all have). He died from complications from it, after having no issues with it previously. One in 2-3 million chance, they said. Should this change our view on this and other vaccines? Absolutely not, don't let emotions run the show instead of the reason but folks seem to go cuckoo pretty damn quickly.

Discussions with otherwise smart moms who come up with ridiculous excuses why their healthy kids can't follow normal vaccination process. When i dug deeper, suddenly there was a story of a friend/colleague whose kid stopped talking after one of those combined child vaccines. Scary, but either you believe science behind vaccines or reject it, there is no middle path.

People like Wachtwoord wants to eat the cake of free traveling in covid/post-covid world without taking any risk embedded in protection not only himself, but also rest of us by being vaccinated. Hard to have any sympathy with it. By his logic, he never ever took any vaccine voluntarily. People seem to forget basic statistics when things get personal and its suddenly not just some numbers, but themselves. But nobody will be forcing anything, stay at home for 10 years (I expect more since virus didn't stop mutating and its not going anywhere). Or take a small risk which removes much greater risk for you and everybody else, and experience relative freedom that will be available hopefully soon.
Best post in a while. Thanks.
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  #54  
Old 02.04.2021, 20:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I'd love to see the SVP/UDC promoting that disability fund
A Covid Passport for every new mutation is more likely.
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Old 02.04.2021, 20:57
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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The bottom line with the Covid prevention vaccination program is that even though the vaccines
are not a 100 per cent safeguard from you contracting and becoming serious ill or dying
from Covid19 - you have to look at the bigger picture and this is ( whatever the criticism )
its the roadmap out of lockdowns, restrictions, travel bans and a return to a better form of normality.

By taking the vaccine your not only giving yourself a 90 to 95 per cent of chance of not contracting
and becoming seriously affected by the virus; your also paying your debt to society and that debt
is to ease the burden on the nations health services, hospitals and ICU's ( Intensive care units )
from being overwhelmed by Covid-19 patients; to the point that all other urgent and life saving
treatment is sidelined, to the point that other people die or are dying unnecessarily for want
of a hospital bed.

In conclusion your actions and those of others in taking the vaccine for the greater good,
can undoubtedly be an example for others to follow suit.
I completely agree with you regarding those over 50+ (myself included). But why would one ever ask a healthy child to get a vaccination for vaccines which have no proven track record when the child's risk is very low regarding hospitalizations and/or severe outcomes? No one understands/knows the risks of possible autoimmune or other issues by taking a vaccine in the future. I am a bridge player/teacher and to me: it's about probability and outcome.

The risk/reward for those healthy adults under the age of 50 (or some would argue 65) is not worth it to me. That said, I will get the vaccine (J&J) for travel purposes and not for health reasons.
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Old 02.04.2021, 21:07
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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A Covid Passport for every new mutation is more likely.
Yes I can just see it now a true Blue Covid passport for the British variant because Britain have
left the EU now and want to return to the much loved blue passports of the olden days.

Then there's the Green & Yellow football team colours of the Brazilian variant passport
while the South African variant passport enjoys the Springbok logo from their rugby team.
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Old 02.04.2021, 21:10
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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.....
Next to that I personally wouldn't touch it within at least decade of being in active use (as a test for longer term, unintended effects) but that is a personal thing....
Yes, it's a personal thing and no one is suggesting enforced vaccination. But I think it's wrong that people with your views should stop the majority travelling and socialising by insisting that 'vaccination passports' should be forbidden. If I want to go to a restaurant, I'd prefer to know that everyone else in there had been vaccinated. Of course, there's no objection to some restaurants and bars declaring that they welcome everyone whether vaccinated or not. You have the option of going to them just as I would have the option of staying away from them -- which I would.
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Old 02.04.2021, 21:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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A Covid Passport for every new mutation is more likely.
No it will be electronic and updated with each update.
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  #59  
Old 02.04.2021, 21:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I completely agree with you regarding those over 50+ (myself included). But why would one ever ask a healthy child to get a vaccination for vaccines which have no proven track record when the child's risk is very low regarding hospitalizations and/or severe outcomes? No one understands/knows the risks of possible autoimmune or other issues by taking a vaccine in the future. I am a bridge player/teacher and to me: it's about probability and outcome.

The risk/reward for those healthy adults under the age of 50 (or some would argue 65) is not worth it to me. That said, I will get the vaccine (J&J) for travel purposes and not for health reasons.
Nowhere in my post did I mention children or those who for medical reasons will be ineligible
( whatever their age ) from being given the vaccine, as it's posted on the premise that the
vaccine will be offered to all vaccine eligible adults.

At the end of the day nobody's forcing eligible vaccine candidate people to take the vaccine,
as that's down to personal choice; my arguments concern the greater good that will be derived
from the greater majority of eligible vaccine candidates, taking the vaccine for reasons already
highlighted in my post.
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Old 02.04.2021, 21:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Yes I can just see it now a true Blue Covid passport for the British variant because Britain have left the EU now and want to return to the much loved blue passports of the olden days.
Bloomin' 'ell, can't you give this whiney sh1t a rest? You're obsessed with the need to abuse people who hold a different world view. Brexit has happened. It's pointless constantly fighting a battle that was lost nearly 5 years ago. Let's get on with it.
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