Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports - Page 4

MusicChick · #61 02.04.2021, 21:14

	Quote:	terrifisch
	I completely agree with you regarding those over 50+ (myself included). But why would one ever ask a healthy child to get a vaccination for vaccines which have no proven track record when the child's risk is very low regarding hospitalizations and/or severe outcomes? No one understands/knows the risks of possible autoimmune or other issues by taking a vaccine in the future. I am a bridge player/teacher and to me: it's about probability and outcome. The risk/reward for those healthy adults under the age of 50 (or some would argue 65) is not worth it to me. That said, I will get the vaccine (J&J) for travel purposes and not for health reasons.

Czech kids plan to come back to school April 12, there are still cca 8000 cases per day there still. They plan to let kids take the rapid antigen tests themselves, and frequently. I think it's better for lowering the risk for teachers, than possibly vaxing kids. The teachers are not being vaxed yet (not enough vax, same story as here) but they seem to want it, 90 000 signed up.

MusicChick · #62 02.04.2021, 21:17

	Quote:	bowlie
	No it will be electronic and updated with each update.

Oh yeah, I can see that. My post was tongue in cheek response to Axa and conservatives creating a disability fund.

I wonder how secure the electronic medical data will be. Makes me uneasy.

#63 02.04.2021, 21:19

	Quote:	John William
	Nowhere in my post did I mention children or those who for medical reasons will be ineligible ( whatever their age ) from being given the vaccine, as it's posted on the premise that the vaccine will be offered to all vaccine eligible adults.

Sorry...my bad as the new narrative in the US is that the Pfizer vaccine is "safe" for those "young adults".

https://apnews.com/article/pfizer-co...a4d9d161331f9e

Why any young adult would take this vaccine when the long-term effects are as yet, undetermined, boggles the mind!

John William · #64 02.04.2021, 21:25

	Quote:	terrifisch
	Sorry...my bad as the new narrative in the US is that the Pfizer vaccine is "safe" for those "young adults". https://apnews.com/article/pfizer-co...a4d9d161331f9e Why any young adult would take this vaccine when the long-term effects are as yet, undetermined, boggles the mind!

Its ok no problem although bear in mind there have been cases where even young adults have
been badly affected by Long Covid following infection from the virus.

wachtwoord · #65 02.04.2021, 21:29

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Yes, it's a personal thing and no one is suggesting enforced vaccination. But I think it's wrong that people with your views should stop the majority travelling and socialising by insisting that 'vaccination passports' should be forbidden. If I want to go to a restaurant, I'd prefer to know that everyone else in there had been vaccinated. Of course, there's no objection to some restaurants and bars declaring that they welcome everyone whether vaccinated or not. You have the option of going to them just as I would have the option of staying away from them -- which I would.

A reaction because its targeted at me and you bring up 1 good point.

I actually agree with you if your point is that private establishments should be allowed to take or refuse any customer they choose, for any reason (Do take note of the implications, you may not like them

). I was mainly advocating against government mandated restrictions.

Your point regarding travel is wrong. It's not people unwilling to be vaccinated for Covid with these vaccines at this time that are restricting your right to travel.

John William · #66 02.04.2021, 21:30

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Bloomin' 'ell, can't you give this whiney sh1t a rest? You're obsessed with the need to abuse people who hold a different world view. Brexit has happened. It's pointless constantly fighting a battle that was lost nearly 5 years ago. Let's get on with it.

FYI - I love the olden days particularly steam trains so I see no abuse in harking back to the
olden days - do you ? Besides which Brits love having their leg pulled in jest, don't you ?

Pachyderm · #67 02.04.2021, 21:39

	Quote:	wachtwoord
	Your point regarding travel is wrong. It's not people unwilling to be vaccinated for Covid with these vaccines at this time that are restricting your right to travel.

No it's not.

My right to travel, or rather, my willingness to travel, is absolutely dependent on the existence of something akin to a vaccination passport -- and if we never get the option of using a vaccination passport then it is certainly largely because of the irrational furore created by opponents of the idea. Again, I repeat that I respect your view to not get vaccinated, or to get vaccinated but refuse to carry proof that you've had your jab. But if your (and others') strident personal views discourage governments from adopting such a scheme then yes, you certainly may be restricting my willingness to travel. And you may well be restricting my right to travel if airlines and other countries insist on passengers/visitors producing proof of having been vaccinated.

#68 02.04.2021, 21:40

	Quote:	John William
	Its ok no problem although bear in mind there have been cases where even young adults have been badly affected by Long Covid following infection from the virus.

I imagine those young adults had pre-existing conditions/co-morbidities and as such, they are outliers

wachtwoord · #69 02.04.2021, 21:45

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	No it's not. My right to travel, or rather, my willingness to travel, is absolutely dependent on the existence of something akin to a vaccination passport -- and if we never get the option of using a vaccination passport then it is certainly largely because of the irrational furore created by opponents of the idea. Again, I repeat that I respect your view to not get vaccinated, or to get vaccinated but refuse to carry proof that you've had your jab. But if your (and others') strident personal views discourage governments from adopting such a scheme then yes, you certainly may be restricting my willingness to travel. And you may well be restricting my right to travel if airlines and other countries insist on passengers/visitors producing proof of having been vaccinated.

How can you blame someone who opposes these travel restrictions altogether for those same restrictions.
After the virus has entered a country (post feb 2020) such measures are entirely useless.

In 2011 the UK formulated a pandemic strategy and wrote the following: https://assets.publishing.service.go.../dh_131040.pdf

	Quote:
	International travel, border restrictions and screening 4.18 The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will issue advice regarding travel to affected countries. There are no plans to attempt to close borders in the event of an influenza pandemic. The UK generally has a high level of international connectivity, and so is likely to be one of the earlier countries to receive infectious individuals. Modelling suggests that imposing a 90% restriction on all air travel to the UK at the point a pandemic emerges would only delay the peak of a pandemic wave by one to two weeks10,11. Even a 99.9% travel restriction might delay a pandemic wave by only two months. During 2009 it became clear that the pandemic virus had already spread widely before international authorities were alerted, suggesting that in any case the point of pandemic emergence had been missed by several weeks. The economic, political and social consequences of border closures would also be very substantial, including risks to the secure supply of food, pharmaceuticals and other supplies.

Axa · #70 02.04.2021, 21:45

	Quote:	wachtwoord
	Your point regarding travel is wrong. It's not people unwilling to be vaccinated for Covid with these vaccines at this time that are restricting your right to travel.

The right to travel (freedom of movement in UN human rights declaration) is within the borders of the home country.

I'm wondering if all the talk about travel restrictions is just a theoretical issue. In a couple months I'll be traveling for the 3rd time during the pandemic. If some countries close the border, it's their loss, not mine. Somewhere else the border is open.

Finally. Yes, there have been some restrictions and regulations in the last year. Albeit, compared to the average Non-EU citizens have to deal with when everything's fine, there have not been major obstacles.

TonyClifton · #71 02.04.2021, 21:46

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	Yes, it's a personal thing and no one is suggesting enforced vaccination. But I think it's wrong that people with your views should stop the majority travelling and socialising by insisting that 'vaccination passports' should be forbidden. If I want to go to a restaurant, I'd prefer to know that everyone else in there had been vaccinated. Of course, there's no objection to some restaurants and bars declaring that they welcome everyone whether vaccinated or not. You have the option of going to them just as I would have the option of staying away from them -- which I would.

This basically highlights the problem, on the one side you say "no one is suggesting enforced vaccination", but then what is being proposed is basically harassing people into getting a vaccine by making life so difficult if they don't. We're not so far away from people not being able to get into shopping malls, bars, restaurants, even able to get a job unless they've had a jab.

HickvonFrick · #72 02.04.2021, 21:47

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	No it's not. My right to travel, or rather, my willingness to travel, is absolutely dependent on the existence of something akin to a vaccination passport -- and if we never get the option of using a vaccination passport then it is certainly largely because of the irrational furore created by opponents of the idea. Again, I repeat that I respect your view to not get vaccinated, or to get vaccinated but refuse to carry proof that you've had your jab. But if your (and others') strident personal views discourage governments from adopting such a scheme then yes, you certainly may be restricting my willingness to travel. And you may well be restricting my right to travel if airlines and other countries insist on passengers/visitors producing proof of having been vaccinated.

If you are vaccinated, then why wouldn't you travel - at least if cases are low?

For me, and I'll definitely have the vaccine, im very reluctant to get the vaccine passport as I think there's been quite enough big government and authoritarianism for now.

John William · #73 02.04.2021, 21:48

	Quote:	terrifisch
	I imagine those young adults had pre-existing conditions/co-morbidities and as such, they are outliers

Most but not all of the young adults who contracted Long Covid have tended
to be young healthy people who had no pre-existing health conditions and
therefore its a bigger blow for them but it's like a roll of the dice, if
your number comes up despite not fitting the image of an 'at risk'
person or age group, then tough.

#74 02.04.2021, 21:48

	Quote:	Pachyderm
	No it's not. My right to travel, or rather, my willingness to travel, is absolutely dependent on the existence of something akin to a vaccination passport -- and if we never get the option of using a vaccination passport then it is certainly largely because of the irrational furore created by opponents of the idea. Again, I repeat that I respect your view to not get vaccinated, or to get vaccinated but refuse to carry proof that you've had your jab. But if your (and others') strident personal views discourage governments from adopting such a scheme then yes, you certainly may be restricting my willingness to travel. And you may well be restricting my right to travel if airlines and other countries insist on passengers/visitors producing proof of having been vaccinated.

Hmmm... a vaccination passport for vaccines whose approval was accelerated and whose long-term efficacy cannot be proven/attested. The WHO and CDC make such disclaimers; are these vaccines or not? Therein lies the question/caveat...

Or are these vaccines analogous to flu shots given the potential variants?

TonyClifton · #75 02.04.2021, 21:49

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	If you are vaccinated, then why wouldn't you travel - at least if cases are low? For me, and I'll definitely have the vaccine, im very reluctant to get the vaccine passport as I think there's been quite enough big government and authoritarianism for now.

Exactly, once those who are at risk of dying have been vaccinated (or rather, have been offered a vaccine) then we should all return to being liberal democracies that respect the rights of the individual.

HickvonFrick · #76 02.04.2021, 21:55

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	Exactly, once those who are at risk of dying have been vaccinated (or rather, have been offered a vaccine) then we should all return to being liberal democracies that respect the rights of the individual.

You've not listened to the latest UK government advice to not hug granny even if you've both been vaccinated?

HickvonFrick · #77 02.04.2021, 21:59

	Quote:	terrifisch
	Sorry...my bad as the new narrative in the US is that the Pfizer vaccine is "safe" for those "young adults". https://apnews.com/article/pfizer-co...a4d9d161331f9e Why any young adult would take this vaccine when the long-term effects are as yet, undetermined, boggles the mind!

Im 32 with no co-morbidities. Although I have essentially zero fear of covid (in my age group its about as dangerous as flu), I do feel something of a social obligation to help get the world back to normal again and on a selfish note to make myself feel like I can do things without feeling guilty.

TonyClifton · #78 02.04.2021, 22:03

	Quote:	HickvonFrick
	You've not listened to the latest UK government advice to not hug granny even if you've both been vaccinated?

I have, and it's insane

Boris Johnson is supposed to be liberal minded too! It's almost as if they're just seeing what they can get away with now.

HickvonFrick · #79 02.04.2021, 22:06

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	I have, and it's insane Boris Johnson is supposed to be liberal minded too! It's almost as if they're just seeing what they can get away with now.

It's not academic either - my younger brother and grandmother have both been vaccinated twice. Have they not understood their legal obligation to allow a family life, or paid attention to the Scottish court ruling?

bowlie · #80 02.04.2021, 22:08

What you are going to see is Governments saying, if you want to visit this country you need a C-passport. Excepted only nationals and residents.

So nobody here needs one to return to CH, but you are going to need to get out.

If you are never going to leave CH, not even to visit the Divonne market on a Sunday, you won’t need one.

But, on the other hand, ...

Inevitably, just like death and taxes.