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Old 02.04.2021, 22:23
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Im 32 with no co-morbidities. Although I have essentially zero fear of covid (in my age group its about as dangerous as flu), I do feel something of a social obligation to help get the world back to normal again and on a selfish note to make myself feel like I can do things without feeling guilty.
Your comment does not make sense. I, also, have zero fear of COVID. If others are vaccinated - those over the age of 65, then how could you spread even if you were infected?

There is no "social obligation" here. If the vaccines work, then those who feel compromised as well as the elderly will get vaccinated - no? How will anyone pose a threat to those vaccinated? Unless... this is not a vaccine... but analogous to a flu shot!

If that is the case, the WHO, CDC, NIH, NHS, FDA and others should disclose.
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  #82  
Old 02.04.2021, 22:54
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

...https://inews.co.uk/opinion/covid-va...-uptake-888926...
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  #83  
Old 03.04.2021, 01:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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This basically highlights the problem, on the one side you say "no one is suggesting enforced vaccination", but then what is being proposed is basically harassing people into getting a vaccine by making life so difficult if they don't. We're not so far away from people not being able to get into shopping malls, bars, restaurants, even able to get a job unless they've had a jab.
It's a choice. I repeat that there should be no compulsion to be vaccinated just as there's no compulsion to get a passport. My older brother is in his 70s and has never had a passport as he's never been bothered about travelling outside the country he was born in. It may seem odd to the expats and inveterate travellers on this forum but there are plenty of people like that. Apparently only 25% or so of Americans have passports, presumably for the same reason. Regarding Covid, as I said earlier, if enterprising owners want to have "no vaccination needed" access to their restaurants and bars, that's totally fine by me, as long as that's made clear on the door. I would avoid these places like, er, the plague while others would be happy to use them. (I feel the same way about allowing smoking in some bars even though I don't smoke myself.)

All that said, while people (and we're talking here about adults over a certain age) shouldn't be forced to get their jab, I seriously wonder what the hell is wrong with people who won't do it in the interests of the greater good. People who have a morbid fear of syringes could, I'm sure, have the serum administered in another way. People who think that the jab is going to pump their bodies full of demons, or a poison more dangerous than Covid itself need to get a freakin' grip. There are plenty of things we all do which are a bit inconvenient for us but which we do to add to the greater good of the world at large, like not playing our Led Zeppelin records at high volume at 4 in the morning.

Ultimately, we need to reduce the spread of the virus, and even if we decide that we personally have a divine immunity to infection, and therefore an inability to pass it on to others more vulnerable than ourselves, I still think we should go ahead and get the jab. This doesn't affect my position that people should not be forced to have it, but unless you've a genuine medical issue that prevents it, just go ahead and get it for heaven's sake, and let's stop wasting energy on these ever-decreasing circles of moral philosophy.

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If you are vaccinated, then why wouldn't you travel - at least if cases are low?
Because it's not all about me. Collectively, we should want to exterminate or massively reduce the spread of Covid. Even with the jab, there are many ways of passing the virus on to others so ultimately we should want to cooperate and support each other to reduce its transmission.

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For me, and I'll definitely have the vaccine, im very reluctant to get the vaccine passport as I think there's been quite enough big government and authoritarianism for now.
Fair enough, that's your political view and you're entitled to it. I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy with the 'big government' psychosis. It's a social and political contract. I pay my taxes and try not to be anti-social (outside EF at least). In return, those evil buggers up there build roads and keep them clear of snow, and provide a lot of other stuff that eases my life including hospitals, schools and a police force. I'm way past the point where I worry that all politicians are conspiring together to work out how to read my very tedious, whiney emails. They're welcome to them all as long as they work out how to make and distribute vaccines that allow me to visit my elderly relatives in Manchester and Glasgow.

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Hmmm... a vaccination passport for vaccines whose approval was accelerated and whose long-term efficacy cannot be proven/attested. The WHO and CDC make such disclaimers; are these vaccines or not? Therein lies the question/caveat...
Well I don't know what sort of bulletproof guarantee you expect for a new vaccine. None is available for vaccines that have been with us for decades. But you're right -- one approach is to withhold the vaccine rollout for perhaps, what, ten years? Twenty? At the end of that period we can assess the results. Alternatively, we can grow up and accept that life has never been, and never will be, free from risk. We can decide that we should be constructive members of the community and not perennial thorns in its side. We can consider the possibility that the risk of taking the vaccine might actually be smaller than allowing the virus to continue its rampage across the globe. It's already killed 3 million people worldwide. Let's make it 30 million, 300 million. Alternative, we could agree to stop moaning and take the damn vaccine. The choice is yours. I've made my own mind up.
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  #84  
Old 03.04.2021, 01:20
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Your comment does not make sense. I, also, have zero fear of COVID. If others are vaccinated - those over the age of 65, then how could you spread even if you were infected?

There is no "social obligation" here. If the vaccines work, then those who feel compromised as well as the elderly will get vaccinated - no? How will anyone pose a threat to those vaccinated? Unless... this is not a vaccine... but analogous to a flu shot!

If that is the case, the WHO, CDC, NIH, NHS, FDA and others should disclose.
I don't want to spread it to an elderly anti-vaxxer. And although I'm not frightened of Covid causing me serious injury (obviously it's possible but you can't go around being scared of very low probability events in life), I'm aware it could leave me feeling shit for a bit - which id rather avoid. Overall the positives easily outweigh the negatives for me.

As regards the point above by Pachyderm about the government not being interested in us as individuals,I have a lot of sympathy with this pragmatic position.

I'd be reasonably happy for the Swiss government to know my vaccination status on reflection, but not the UK at present - I consider the latter to have illegally abused its power in a number of regards (Scottish government has already been found to have done so) and I think it needs standing up to. I say that as someone who is a probable supporter... I could well relax that view but not yet.

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Old 03.04.2021, 07:39
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

I am much more comfortable having the Swiss Governments manage these passports WHEN (not IF) they begin to be issued. It’s the same question as the recent vote we had on the electronic ID.

I can’t say I trust the governments as they can be bureaucratic and incompetent. But they will not be trying to stick their fingers into my pockets, sell me something, or add the data to their profile of me.

Without doubt we will have some sort of electronic record of our vaccinations, it is necessary to grease the wheels of international commerce, especially the tourism business. It will reopen doors that were slammed in our faces not so long ago.

I already have a pdf file from the Canton detailing my injections, so they already have my details. Putting it into a more tamper-proof format is probably ‘a very good thing (tm)’.

So I don’t see any controversy here. It’s going to happen people, not if but when.
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  #86  
Old 03.04.2021, 08:43
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Your comment does not make sense. I, also, have zero fear of COVID. If others are vaccinated - those over the age of 65, then how could you spread even if you were infected?

There is no "social obligation" here. If the vaccines work, then those who feel compromised as well as the elderly will get vaccinated - no? How will anyone pose a threat to those vaccinated? Unless... this is not a vaccine... but analogous to a flu shot!

If that is the case, the WHO, CDC, NIH, NHS, FDA and others should disclose.
A flu shot is a vaccine,s I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

And this issue is that if you catch the disease you can spread it to some elderly/compromised/scared etc. who cannot take the vaccine due to being immunocompromised or allergic or too frail. And that is why you are socially obligated. It really isn't difficult.

It's always been the case that herd immunity is about protecting the members of the herd who cannot or are not vaccinated. This is achieved by vaccinating as many people as possible so that the chances of the virus spreading to the vulnerable is made vanishingly small.

The vast majority of people who contract measles suffer only mild symptoms. But the chances of damage or death are severe enough for a social obligation to vaccinate your child (if not medically otherwise indicated).
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Old 03.04.2021, 09:20
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think there's been quite enough big government and authoritarianism for now.
What an utterly meaningless and laughable statement .With everything going on in the world you clearly have no idea what true authoritarianism is. A vaccine passport has a clearly defined and specific goal, to reduce the spread of a deadly pandemic that has crippled world economies and social life for over a year by making it so that unvaccinated people cannot spread the disease on a wider geographic level. Are you seriously, with a straight face, saying that this is "authoritarianism"? Stopping individuals from making bad choices that then harm many others? Just... lol...

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Exactly, once those who are at risk of dying have been vaccinated (or rather, have been offered a vaccine) then we should all return to being liberal democracies that respect the rights of the individual.
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I have, and it's insane Boris Johnson is supposed to be liberal minded too! It's almost as if they're just seeing what they can get away with now.
Ahh TrollyClifton, it's so fascinating how you can so selectively claim 'liberalism', when your many postings in many political threads like Trump Presidency and Trump vs Biden have exposed you as actively supporting and defending right-wing authoritarians. Much of the time you are a right-wing mouthpiece and provocateur, seemingly posing only as 'liberal' when it suits you. You don't fool anyone.

Last edited by Chuff; 03.04.2021 at 09:57.
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Old 03.04.2021, 09:33
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think that in the time of crisis, we need critical thinkers even more than any other time. The outcome of a team work or debate is better.
.
Indeed, all the researchers or scientists that studied viruses and vaccines all their lives lack critical thinking. Epidemiologists who say the only way to stop the pandemic is mass vaccination...they also lack critical thinking.

After all, what people really need today is all the critical thinkers the Internet can provide. Except they're getting their critical thoughts from other people like them.

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Egoists don't share unpopular ideas.
How should I even comment on this...I won't.
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  #89  
Old 03.04.2021, 10:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

The COVID virus is evil, as a result of it I thank Chuff rather than groaning her, as I should!

Tom
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  #90  
Old 03.04.2021, 10:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Once a pill against Covid comes on the market, the game rules will change significantly again. Until then, those who are vaccinated should be able to travel, if only to start winding the tourism economy back up again. The 65+ crowd have money and time... it's time to releash them into the wilderness.

As for the younger generation who is suffocating due to current restraints, I truly wish I knew the answer in regards to travel. Although Covid has a lesser effect on that age group, they spread the virus like anyone else.
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Old 03.04.2021, 10:15
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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it's time to releash them into the wilderness.
Releash?

Also, where will I get all this money from in a few years?

Tom
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  #92  
Old 03.04.2021, 12:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Once a pill against Covid comes on the market, the game rules will change significantly again.
Er, have you had your pill for the flu, for the cold, for measles, whopping cough, tetanus? Something taken orally must pass through the stomach, which contains acid. Any Flu treatment wouldn't survive this process.

No because there isn't one. A pill would be for treatment of someone after they are infected, not to prevent infections. To prevent infections our immune systems need to be trained to fight viruses from the first minute. This can only occur if we prepare them to respond immediately to a new virus.

So how do we do it?

Pfizer-BioNTech
Moderna
Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen

and some others ...

A needle is nothing. I didn't even feel either of my two jabs. If you are queasy, just don't look.
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Old 03.04.2021, 12:45
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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The 65+ crowd have money and time... it's time to releash them into the wilderness.
Actually the 65+ have very little time left for travelling, Hiring a car above 80 is not easy & plenty of 75+ year olds have health issues & not that good on their feet!

I will be 59, I can't imagine having 10 'BIG' ski seasons left, although I will probably ski a bit for the next 20 seasons. Time is definitely running out, I moved to CH in 1994 as I could generally only ski 6-8 weeks a year when I lived in the UK
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  #94  
Old 03.04.2021, 12:50
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Actually the 65+ have very little time left for travelling, Hiring a car above 80 is not easy & plenty of 75+ year olds have health issues & not that good on their feet!

I will be 59, I can't imagine having 10 'BIG' ski seasons left, although I will probably ski a bit for the next 20 seasons. Time is definitely running out, I moved to CH in 1994 as I could generally only ski 6-8 weeks a year when I lived in the UK
Sweetie, there are other types of travel besides skiing.
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Old 03.04.2021, 12:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Sweetie, there are other types of travel besides skiing.
Yep, motorcycles!

Tom
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  #96  
Old 03.04.2021, 12:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Er, have you had your pill for the flu, for the cold, for measles, whopping cough, tetanus? Something taken orally must pass through the stomach, which contains acid. Any Flu treatment wouldn't survive this process.

No because there isn't one. A pill would be for treatment of someone after they are infected, not to prevent infections. To prevent infections our immune systems need to be trained to fight viruses from the first minute. This can only occur if we prepare them to respond immediately to a new virus.

So how do we do it?

Pfizer-BioNTech
Moderna
Johnson & Johnsonís Janssen

and some others ...

A needle is nothing. I didn't even feel either of my two jabs. If you are queasy, just don't look.
There are pills being developed to fight Covid at the first signs of infection.

https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer...ntiviral-pill/
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Old 03.04.2021, 12:55
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Yep, motorcycles!

Tom
I plan to ski and meditate on my paddle-board at 65. I bet all our group will.

Bikes smell good but don't like the amount of maintenance.
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Old 03.04.2021, 12:55
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Yep, motorcycles!

Tom
For the almost 60 crowd, you guys are really fast on your feet.
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Old 03.04.2021, 13:02
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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A flu shot is a vaccine,s I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

Like a flu shot in the sense it will need repeated doses every now and then to counter new variants. The covid vaccines will need tweaking and you will need these booster shots against some new covid strains that become dominant.
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Old 03.04.2021, 13:02
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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There are pills being developed to fight Covid at the first signs of infection.

https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer...ntiviral-pill/
Well thatís a treatment for the disease the virus causes. Iíd much prefer not to get the disease in the first place. If I donít get it, I canít spread it.

And the cost? Two minor jabs and perhaps a couple of days of feeling poorly.
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