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  #101  
Old 03.04.2021, 13:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Bikes smell good but don't like the amount of maintenance.
What maintenance?

Tom
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  #102  
Old 03.04.2021, 13:26
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Like a flu shot in the sense it will need repeated doses every now and then to counter new variants. The covid vaccines will need tweaking and you will need these booster shots against some new covid strains that become dominant.
Well, thatís one of the things we donít know, yet. Iím OK with an annual update, perhaps they could combine it with my flu jab.

Mind you I havenít needed a booster for measles, mumps or Rubella. Nor pox de poulet (inside joke).
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  #103  
Old 03.04.2021, 19:01
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You are simply wrong. Phase 2 testing is not finished. Phase 3 testing will not begin for many months. That's true for all the vaccines. (On top of that all R&D for these vaccines was rushed for obvious reasons).
I'm wrong because you don't know the facts or you can show me the facts that prove otherwise?


Facts:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-tracker.html

at this moment we have
48 in phase 1 trial,
33 in phase 2 trial,
23 in phase 3 trial,
6 approved for limited use
7 approved for full use
and 4 discarded



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These vaccines are nothing like e.g. a Polio, Diphtheria, Yellow fever, Hepatitis etc innocolation.
Yup, they are not, they are much more efficient. At least those first ones.

ALL vaccines work on the same principle - put something in our body that will teach our body to make antibodies.

As opposed to many years of vaccines by system of 'kill the virus or make it weaker' now we have just rna/proteins. I find that significantly better because there's not even a remote chance that you might get infected with a virus, since there is no virus anywhere.

I'd rather get a fake protein than a dead virus, if we're talking preferences

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This basically highlights the problem, on the one side you say "no one is suggesting enforced vaccination", but then what is being proposed is basically harassing people into getting a vaccine by making life so difficult if they don't. We're not so far away from people not being able to get into shopping malls, bars, restaurants, even able to get a job unless they've had a jab.
Ha, we're not far from that.
Here in Berlin they proposed or even accepted (I'm out of the loop ATM), that you need to have speed test from that day if you want to go to shopping except for grocery, drug stores and pharmacies. Plus you have to have 3 tracking app.

Not sure if all is effective as of the other day, or this with apps is just a proposal for case if they open terases for restaurants.

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If the vaccines work, then those who feel compromised as well as the elderly will get vaccinated - no? How will anyone pose a threat to those vaccinated? Unless... this is not a vaccine... but analogous to a flu shot!

If that is the case, the WHO, CDC, NIH, NHS, FDA and others should disclose.
If you're reading scientific sources you can clearly see that the point of covid vaccines is to reduce risk of death and severe illnesses.
No one said it is enough to get vaccinated and that virus will bounce off of you.

But maybe we're speaking in terms of language barriers, but what do you think vaccine really is? To me vaccine and shot is the same, and in my native tongue I can't recall if we have more than one term for 'put something in your body that will teach your immune system to fight'.

AFAIK no vaccine will stop you from getting the virus.
It's all about race with a time between you get the virus, if your body can kill it that fast so it can't reproduce in enough quantities so that you could spread it to someone else.

With airborne viruses and rapidly multiplicating ones which have a non trivial incubation period like covid virus is, I don't think it's even possible to shorten that time with the current knowledge we have.
That's why distancing, cleaning hands, not coughing is important here - because everything helps to reduce the amount in the air, and therefore reduce the chances of infecting someone else.

And also, WITH having antibodies, timeframe in which your body releases virus in the air is significantly reduced or the amount it releases is reduced.
THAT's the point of vaccines.


Also, they ARE working on antivirals - which are used after you're infected to reduce the amount of virus load in yourself so help your body to fight it off + reduce the amount you shed.


I cannot recommend this guy enough, he's making clear and simple explanations backed by current findings:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS...-VjN89A/videos

Last edited by roegner; 03.04.2021 at 20:39. Reason: Merging posts
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  #104  
Old 03.04.2021, 19:43
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

As per the CDC: here is THEIR definition of a vaccine:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm

But to quote:

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a personís immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, PROTECTING the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
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  #105  
Old 03.04.2021, 19:46
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Well, thatís one of the things we donít know, yet. Iím OK with an annual update, perhaps they could combine it with my flu jab.

Mind you I havenít needed a booster for measles, mumps or Rubella. Nor pox de poulet (inside joke).
Hm, not every virus is the same, they're sorted out in their family tree the same as mammals are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virus
Quote:
As of 2019, 4 realms, 9 kingdoms, 16 phyla, 2 subphyla, 36 classes, 55 orders, 8 suborders, 168 families, 103 subfamilies, 1,421 genera, 68 subgenera, and 6,589 species of viruses have been defined by the ICTV.[5]
another way of looking into them
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The Baltimore classification of viruses is based on the mechanism of mRNA production. Viruses must generate mRNAs from their genomes to produce proteins and replicate themselves, but different mechanisms are used to achieve this in each virus family. Viral genomes may be single-stranded (ss) or double-stranded (ds), RNA or DNA, and may or may not use reverse transcriptase (RT). In addition, ssRNA viruses may be either sense (+) or antisense (−). This classification places viruses into seven groups:

I: dsDNA viruses (e.g. Adenoviruses, Herpesviruses, Poxviruses)
II: ssDNA viruses (+ strand or "sense") DNA (e.g. Parvoviruses)
III: dsRNA viruses (e.g. Reoviruses)
IV: (+)ssRNA viruses (+ strand or sense) RNA (e.g. Coronaviruses, Picornaviruses, Togaviruses)
V: (−)ssRNA viruses (− strand or antisense) RNA (e.g. Orthomyxoviruses, Rhabdoviruses)
VI: ssRNA-RT viruses (+ strand or sense) RNA with DNA intermediate in life-cycle (e.g. Retroviruses)
VII: dsDNA-RT viruses DNA with RNA intermediate in life-cycle (e.g. Hepadnaviruses)
For example, check the pic on the bottom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative-strand_RNA_virus

So in this group are bunch of subgroups, among others influenza, ebola, mumps, measles, rabies, but as you can see, those are just some common ones in their respective subgroups.
So, they might share some similarities, but they also differ.

From that difference comes the part how long our bodies keep the recipe for making antibodies. Also, depending on how fast or slow it spreads - that affects it mutation rate which in turn has an effect on how often we need to change the vaccines.
If tons of us are vaccinated, so we have bodies that can fight off it fast and efficient, like it's case with mumps and such, virus just doesn't have a chance to spread around, mutate and make a mess.

With flu shots, it's about guessing which strain will be prevalent and so far mutations didn't came up with something new and bad. Yet.

And flu isn't of corona type viruses, however common cold is.
And I think we all know how fast common cold spreads.

That's why covid virus is problematic - fast spread, long incubation, can be deadly but not too fast - in other words it made itself highly spreadable.

Unlike ebola which is too deadly and because of that cannot spread that insanely fast, but we've all seen how much damage it did not too long ago.

We're lucky that for majority of people covid virus isn't anything more dangerous than a flu, because more destructive with slower death and same viral properties, would literally eradicate us.

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As per the CDC: here is THEIR definition of a vaccine:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/imz-basics.htm

But to quote:

Vaccine: A product that stimulates a personís immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, PROTECTING the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.
You are protected from the disease.
You're not protected from getting infected or spreading it per se - speed of your immune response is what makes the difference if you'll get the disease or not, but viruses will try to attack.

Those two things are different.

For covid vaccines, many vaccinated people will indeed be completely protected from the disease, another part will be protected from serious disease and death.

Yes, currently that's the best we could get with current tech - something that will prevent death and serious diseases for everyone, but I agree, it isn't 'no disease' for everyone.

However, now we're in the field of efficiency and efficacy of vaccine area.
For math and explainations about that you can start with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvUWRoeUfNM

Check this, I think it's nice explanation and comparison of currently active vaccines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A

It doesn't go into too much math.

Last edited by roegner; 03.04.2021 at 20:40. Reason: Merging posts, pls use multiquote button
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  #106  
Old 03.04.2021, 20:44
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Here in Berlin they proposed or even accepted (I'm out of the loop ATM), that you need to have speed test from that day if you want to go to shopping except for grocery, drug stores and pharmacies. Plus you have to have 3 tracking app.

Not sure if all is effective as of the other day, or this with apps is just a proposal for case if they open terases for restaurants.
What app? There is none mandatory in Berlin atm.
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  #107  
Old 03.04.2021, 21:11
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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A flu shot is a vaccine,s I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

And this issue is that if you catch the disease you can spread it to some elderly/compromised/scared etc. who cannot take the vaccine due to being immunocompromised or allergic or too frail. And that is why you are socially obligated. It really isn't difficult.

It's always been the case that herd immunity is about protecting the members of the herd who cannot or are not vaccinated. This is achieved by vaccinating as many people as possible so that the chances of the virus spreading to the vulnerable is made vanishingly small.

The vast majority of people who contract measles suffer only mild symptoms. But the chances of damage or death are severe enough for a social obligation to vaccinate your child (if not medically otherwise indicated).
Point taken But what about natural immunity? Why are there not any studies on those who seem to have natural immunity despite exposure? I know several where one or two in the family "had" COVID but the others in the family were okay. T3 cell immunity exists. Just found an article from the BMI referencing this:

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Many would argue that we are much closer to herd immunity given those affected and those who have a "natural" immune repsonse. Why ask teenagers who are the least likely to have complications to get a vaccine which has not been proven regarding long-term complications? To me, that makes zero sense...
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  #108  
Old 04.04.2021, 00:30
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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What app? There is none mandatory in Berlin atm.
https://www.berlin.de/rbmskzl/aktuel...ng.1069916.php

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Urgent call for the use of digital attendance documentation: In order to enable better contact tracking and thus break chains of infection, the Senate appeals to service providers and traders as well as other institutions with public access to use digital offers such as the so-called Luca app. This is mandatory for the retail trade, with the exception of the basic supply.
I knew I saw somewhere about some apps....

I opted for online shopping, much easier to follow the rules. Because they're getting crazy here :/


I also read something about push for obligation to have that 'were you in close proximity of someone who got tested positive'....
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  #109  
Old 04.04.2021, 02:22
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I'm wrong because you don't know the facts or you can show me the facts that prove otherwise?


Facts:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...e-tracker.html

at this moment we have
48 in phase 1 trial,
33 in phase 2 trial,
23 in phase 3 trial,
6 approved for limited use
7 approved for full use
and 4 discarded
Apearently they already started with phase 3 testing (did they wait for phase 2 testing to be completed?). You are correct I was not aware of that. I knew phase 3 testing wasnt started for any vaccine by the end of 2020 and was not expected to commence for a few months. I did not check up whether any already started by now.

Do note phase 3 will take years to complete. When looking for Pfizer–BioNTech (which I randomly picked because it tops the list in the source you cite) the wikipedia articles states (with citation) its in phase 3 trials which will continue until jan 2023 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfiz...VID-19_vaccine)

Quote:
Monitoring of the primary outcomes from the trials will continue until August 2021, while monitoring of the secondary outcomes will continue until January 2023.[21]
Btw did you know there is a phase 4 in the normal process as well? (I actually didn't) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phas...earch#Phase_IV

My conclusion that the vaccine is rushed and poorly tested, is valid.

Regarding your preference for an RNA vaccine. Theoretically I agree, yet in practice I don't. You need old tech that's tested to death when dealing with people's lives. This is why for example nuclear plants are written in software using decades old software systems: the problems have been found in practice.

If you would force me to take a vaccine now based only on the info I have today I'd go Sputnik (based on a de-activated virus) the Russians developed.

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We're lucky that for majority of people covid virus isn't anything more dangerous than a flu, because more destructive with slower death and same viral properties, would literally eradicate us.
Wow eradicate. Do you realize what consistent (so without resistance building) mortality rate would be required to wipe out the human species? I actually don't but it would need to be really really high. A virus like that is highly unlikely to develop naturally since a parasitic lifeform needs hosts to survive and reproduce.

Last edited by wachtwoord; 04.04.2021 at 02:33.
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  #110  
Old 04.04.2021, 07:56
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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If I donít get it, I canít spread it.
Alas, you are confusing the virus with the disease.

You can get the virus without getting the disease, and thus can spread it.

Tom
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  #111  
Old 04.04.2021, 08:10
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

I am going to have to rethink my positive position on this.

The BBCís review of the (news) papers today is showing the tabloids are almost universal in their happiness with a potential (englšnder) covid passport.

I donít think the tabloids have ever agreed with me before. Worrying
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  #112  
Old 04.04.2021, 08:12
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Alas, you are confusing the virus with the disease.

You can get the virus without getting the disease, and thus can spread it.

Tom
That has yet to be determined. Insufficient data to confirm or deny. Yet.
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  #113  
Old 04.04.2021, 12:04
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Sweetie, there are other types of travel besides skiing.
I guess I need to be less aspirational & go back to work like everybody else.
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  #114  
Old 04.04.2021, 19:11
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Alas, you are confusing the virus with the disease.

You can get the virus without getting the disease, and thus can spread it.

Tom
That has yet to be determined. Insufficient data to confirm or deny. Yet.

I think it's widely accepted (with this and some other viruses) that many people get infected without getting sick or even showing symptoms, and these people are also infectious to others.
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Old 04.04.2021, 20:20
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Don't shake hands with ET !!

The WHO warns Ufologists and all those that might encounter extraterrestrials from another
planet, following the recent pandemic by saying "for God's sake don't shake hands with
any of them, as they could be carrying viruses beyond our comprehension"

The Atlantic - Good riddance to the Handshake



Name:  ET.jpg
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  #116  
Old 04.04.2021, 20:52
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

...is time for fusion of threads...to much drumming on same subject...this is suggestion for those who was good on splitting them...
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  #117  
Old 05.04.2021, 00:55
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Govt eyeing Covid passports to attend the British FA Cup final this year

A Covid status certification or passport scheme is being developed to enable concerts & sports matches to
take place in the UK.
It would record whether people have been vaccinated, recently tested negative or had natural immunity
following a bout of Coronavirus.

Apparently the NHS are said to be working on a system to allow people to demonstrate their vaccination
status through a mobile App or paper certificate.

BBC News - Covid: Passports showing vaccine status should be time limited says minister




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  #118  
Old 05.04.2021, 04:01
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Apearently they already started with phase 3 testing (did they wait for phase 2 testing to be completed?). You are correct I was not aware of that. I knew phase 3 testing wasnt started for any vaccine by the end of 2020 and was not expected to commence for a few months. I did not check up whether any already started by now.

Do note phase 3 will take years to complete. When looking for Pfizer–BioNTech (which I randomly picked because it tops the list in the source you cite) the wikipedia articles states (with citation) its in phase 3 trials which will continue until jan 2023 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfiz...VID-19_vaccine)

Btw did you know there is a phase 4 in the normal process as well? (I actually didn't) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phas...earch#Phase_IV

My conclusion that the vaccine is rushed and poorly tested, is valid.

L
1) Phase 3 data for Pfizer was published Q4 2020. It's simply untrue to say it wasn't started by then.

2) It is true that the trial is still running, but it already has enough data to demonstrate efficacy and safety.

3) (FYI) It's normal to have multiple trials in the same phase for a given medicine. Just because phase 3 trials are ongoing doesn't mean data sufficient for approval aren't available. For instance, you might want to plan a new phase 3 trial on some of the new variants, or with a different patient population.

4) Phase 4 isn't part of the approval process per se. It simply refers to the ongoing submission of data to the regulator to check that everything is going as expected. By definition you can't wait until phase 4 is over before rolling out a medicine.
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  #119  
Old 05.04.2021, 10:15
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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It's a choice. I repeat that there should be no compulsion to be vaccinated just as there's no compulsion to get a passport. My older brother is in his 70s and has never had a passport as he's never been bothered about travelling outside the country he was born in. It may seem odd to the expats and inveterate travellers on this forum but there are plenty of people like that. Apparently only 25% or so of Americans have passports, presumably for the same reason. Regarding Covid, as I said earlier, if enterprising owners want to have "no vaccination needed" access to their restaurants and bars, that's totally fine by me, as long as that's made clear on the door. I would avoid these places like, er, the plague while others would be happy to use them. (I feel the same way about allowing smoking in some bars even though I don't smoke myself.)
No Irish, no blacks, no non-vaccinated...

Whilst vaccine passports for international travel is one thing, vaccine passports for domestic use is massively unethical and illiberal.

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What app? There is none mandatory in Berlin atm.
Iím afraid one of you is going to have to change your profile pic, this is far too confusing!
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  #120  
Old 05.04.2021, 14:37
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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1) Phase 3 data for Pfizer was published Q4 2020. It's simply untrue to say it wasn't started by then.
I swear I read as literal statement that as of december 2020 none of them had started phase 3 on the main wikipedia article but don't see it now.

However:

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2) It is true that the trial is still running, but it already has enough data to demonstrate efficacy and safety.

3) (FYI) It's normal to have multiple trials in the same phase for a given medicine. Just because phase 3 trials are ongoing doesn't mean data sufficient for approval aren't available. For instance, you might want to plan a new phase 3 trial on some of the new variants, or with a different patient population.
.
is the crux of it. You are saying that acting on preliminary and partial data means it is tested well. I say that is poorly or at least unsifficiently tested (especially since the vaccines themselves are rushed, requiring a hightened burden of proof if anything).

They are approved for political reasons and political reasons alone.
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