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Old 02.04.2021, 12:08
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Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Yes the debate is hotting up over the controversy surrounding proposed Covid passports in the UK & abroad
and the implication; they will be a new form of discrimination and infringement of human rights leading
to possible temporary & permanent restrictions on where your permitted to go and what your permitted
to do following their introduction.

The Tories new lockdown sceptic Covid Research Group are attracting a lot of crossbench supporters
in the British Parliament, in their opposition to the introduction of Covid passports.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56605598
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Old 02.04.2021, 12:41
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Why should people who don't get vaccinated not be discriminated against when it comes to certain things such as travel and entering official or private public areas, when they are wilfully putting themselves and others at risk? The only people who should not be getting the vaccines are people with genuine exemptions.

I am all for discriminating against those misguided and irresponsible people who propogate anti-vaccine conspiracy and fear.
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Old 02.04.2021, 12:47
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

As long as everyone has the opportunity to get vaccinated and there is an exemption for those who genuinely can’t, the I’m all for it.

A friend of mines Mum, was all “I’m not having the vaccine, it’s not been tested properly”, when my friend said “well you probably won’t be able to go on holiday then”, she was like “oh ok then I’ll have it!”
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:13
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

I think we could all take a lesson from Denmark, they’ve said that once the vaccine has been offered to everyone over 50 them the country will reopen fully (Note offered not taken). A sensible approach rather than authoritarian vaccine passports.
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:53
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Why should people who don't get vaccinated not be discriminated against when it comes to certain things such as travel and entering official or private public areas, when they are wilfully putting themselves and others at risk? The only people who should not be getting the vaccines are people with genuine exemptions.

I am all for discriminating against those misguided and irresponsible people who propogate anti-vaccine conspiracy and fear.
Then kids can't travel, that will go down well.
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:54
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

What is a "genuine" reason?

And is a "genuine reason" in one country the same as in another?
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Old 02.04.2021, 13:58
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Then kids can't travel, that will go down well.
If it is not obvious to you that kids have an exemption because it is not yet approved/allowed to give it to them then Jesus H. Christ... fatmanthick is hereby from this moment forth your new name.

EDIT - Meant in the lightest possible sense, of course.

Last edited by Chuff; 02.04.2021 at 14:35.
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Old 02.04.2021, 14:07
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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I think we could all take a lesson from Denmark, they’ve said that once the vaccine has been offered to everyone over 50 them the country will reopen fully (Note offered not taken). A sensible approach rather than authoritarian vaccine passports.
If I remember well that's the strategy of Switzerland. There's an estimate than between 50-60% of the population will take the vaccine. Once that's done, there's no reason to keep with the light lockdown.

There are some legal issues (discrimination) with the vaccine passports but I guess there are no practical consequences in the real world. It's not like the people that refuse vaccination are fond of traveling around the world.
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Old 02.04.2021, 14:08
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Then kids can't travel, that will go down well.
Sounds perfect to me!!!

(Obviously kids exempt if not able to be vaccinated).
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Old 02.04.2021, 14:26
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Until we get to the point where everyone who wants a vaccine has had their two jabs, this should remain only a possibility. One we get to that point then I am all in favour of restrictions for those that choose to be non-vaccinated.

If it’s proven that vaccinated people can’t spread the virus then I’ll be a little more laid back about the non-vaccinated participation in daily life,shops, bars, restaurants, etc. But international travel should be prohibited.

Allowances should be made for those who cannot be vaccinated.

It is, what it is.
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Old 02.04.2021, 15:18
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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If I remember well that's the strategy of Switzerland. There's an estimate than between 50-60% of the population will take the vaccine. Once that's done, there's no reason to keep with the light lockdown.

There are some legal issues (discrimination) with the vaccine passports but I guess there are no practical consequences in the real world. It's not like the people that refuse vaccination are fond of traveling around the world.
So the fact that you are young and consider the risk of taking a rushed, poorly tested vaccine larger than the risk of a virus with a mortality rate per age group similar to influenza, means you are not fond of travel?

I'm innoculated for dangerous deseases, which I have a fair chance of getting and with tried and true tested vaccines (in use for 10+ years). All 3 requirements must be met for taking the vaccine to be rational. Corona, Covid-19 specifically, only fullfills one of the requirements (fair chance of getting) so I'll pass.

What's with people calling something a vaccine makes people hear "magic potion"? For each available vaccine (there are many deseases with vaccines for which you are not innolulated I'm sure!) one must consider its merits and demerits to decide whether one should take it or not.
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Old 02.04.2021, 16:19
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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So the fact that you are young and consider the risk of taking a rushed, poorly tested vaccine larger than the risk of a virus with a mortality rate per age group similar to influenza, means you are not fond of travel?

I'm innoculated for dangerous deseases, which I have a fair chance of getting and with tried and true tested vaccines (in use for 10+ years). All 3 requirements must be met for taking the vaccine to be rational. Corona, Covid-19 specifically, only fullfills one of the requirements (fair chance of getting) so I'll pass.

What's with people calling something a vaccine makes people hear "magic potion"? For each available vaccine (there are many deseases with vaccines for which you are not innolulated I'm sure!) one must consider its merits and demerits to decide whether one should take it or not.
The key point to consider here is potential exposure, which you mentioned - I think it's pretty clear that almost every town and city in the world gives you the "opportunity" to be exposed to covid at the moment ...

As for waiting ten years for the vaccine to be "tried and tested" - you'd like to be in lockdown for over a decade? Many governments have said that's the alternative to having the bulk of the population vaccinated ...

Oh, and they haven't been "poorly-tested", they were able to get the vaccines approved so quickly because governments removed a lot of delays in the normal approval process. Rather than having to wait their turn in line among the mass of drugs awaiting approval at any given time, any covid vaccines went straight to the top of the pile. They're a bit more important than another ringworm treatment, I'd say ...

Also, it's not just the mortality rate that's the issue - it's how contagious it is, this issue with long covid, and the fact that if we just "let it take its course" without any restrictions or vaccine, the hospital system in every country would be completely overwhelmed - which would drastically increase the mortality rate, which is over 2% worldwide. A one in 50 chance of dying is pretty high, really ... and Switzerland isn't much better, the rate's about 1.5%.
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Old 02.04.2021, 16:24
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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What is a "genuine" reason?

And is a "genuine reason" in one country the same as in another?
Being immunocompromised to the point that even reaction to vaccine where your body makes antibodies would be too much for you?

Being allergic to ingredients of vaccine, mostly carrier, or to similar vaccines before.

Can't think of anything else now from the scientific standpoint.

@bowlie: vaccinated people can spread virus. It's just that it's less likely, since the time while their bodies fight the virus is shorter, and therefore shorter time for spreading the virus. Also, virus needs to be spread in some quantities in order to infect sucessfully.

That's with all vaccines. Catch-22 with covid one is that bastard is multiplying SO fast and is contagious in small amounts that it's tricky.

@wachtwoord

Covid vaccine isn't poorly tested. It's very properly tested. Only difference is that red tape was cut now, in comparison to usual procedures of waiting and waiting.
For example, main issue with AZ vaccine is that they didn't test it on some age group, so it wasn't approved on that age group. Also, no vaccine yet AFAIK is tested for kids, that's why it isn't approved on kids.
But for those where it IS approved, it is definitely tested following all procedures.

Issue with AZ and blood clotting is a thing that cannot be tested in trials, because it's so incredibly rare to happen and we still don't know what exactly caused those clots afaik.

EVERY medicine has trials, approvals and then is watched all the time, and everything weird about it is reported, but you need millions to notice some issues if they happen, and you also need to determine what is the real cause.

But there's nothing 'not properly trialled' with those currently approved vaccines. Those whose efficiency wasn't good or was something bad with them during the trial, were abandoned and not approved.


Also, carrier fluid in those main few is in use for decades, so that's long term testing if you'd like. (I stopped paying attention after first three came)
Virus information itself that you'll get will degrade in your body in a few days, so there's nothing that can really 'affect you long term'.
So, to be on the safe side, they say after a few weeks, there's nothing left that could have remote chance of making something to you in the long run.

Also, NO vaccine in the world for anything will make you NOT get the virus. Point is that WHEN you get the virus, your body fight it off fast and it can't do damage to you nor become virulent.

I'd suggest watching some sources that did due diligence and gathered scientific data, like:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMS...ZsNXi0Z-VjN89A or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3odScka55A this and videos on that channel

Also, this is nice review of current vaccines:
https://nostalgic-tereshkova-fa3cc9.netlify.app/

Only part I didn't check yet is if recipe for antibodies in our body can affect us in the long run somehow. I doubt it, but granted, I didn't check so I don't know. However, that isn't big issue - because you'll get them either way - either through vaccine or through covid itself.
If you get them before you get covid, you'll have a chance to not get crazy sick of covid and that will BE better for you on the long run, eg your lungs will stay normal and so on.

We'll all get infected, only question is will it be before or after we've vaccinated and what consequences will the covid leave at us.

Yes, covid has proven consequences - because it basically behaves like a rebel who comes in and destroys our protective system and then OTHER stuff come in easily and smash around. Those other diseases are the main reason why people's bodies are destroyed after surviving covid.
So person who'd normally went through a pneumonia, without major consequences, if they pick up covid and pneumonia, it literally destroys their lungs, because our immune system is devastated from fighting with covid and no one is left to properly fight off pneumonia.

In some sense covid mechanism of action is similar to what HIV does, but worse - since it's airborne and spreads like crazy. With HIV you at least can make a precaution with whom you'll have sex with and ask them to show you / go to the testing before you lay in the bed with them.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7797543/
for example, for a nice overview
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Old 02.04.2021, 16:54
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Unfortunately, I'm in vaccination group N - so will have to wait a while until it's my turn.

I just wonder if all those people that are so strongly in favor of the vaccination passport currently visit public places or have any social contacts, as they are health risks according to their own standards.
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Old 02.04.2021, 17:28
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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.

@wachtwoord

Covid vaccine isn't poorly tested. It's very properly tested. Only difference is that red tape was cut now, in comparison to usual procedures of waiting and waiting.
For example, main issue with AZ vaccine is that they didn't test it on some age group, so it wasn't approved on that age group. Also, no vaccine yet AFAIK is tested for kids, that's why it isn't approved on kids.
But for those where it IS approved, it is definitely tested following all procedures.
You are simply wrong. Phase 2 testing is not finished. Phase 3 testing will not begin for many months. That's true for all the vaccines. (On top of that all R&D for these vaccines was rushed for obvious reasons).

These vaccines are nothing like e.g. a Polio, Diphtheria, Yellow fever, Hepatitis etc innocolation.

Next to that I personally wouldn't touch it within at least decade of being in active use (as a test for longer term, unintended effects) but that is a personal thing. I am consistent in that and apply it to all vaccines for deseases with miniscule chance of long term consequences.

I'm amazed that under normal circumstances someone dying of cancer is not allowed to try a cancer medicine which has gone through phase 1, 2 and 3 testing, but is still missing a final approval on your own dime and at your own risk. Compare that with the current situation. Please take a step back and reflect.

Last edited by wachtwoord; 02.04.2021 at 17:31. Reason: split into separate post
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Old 02.04.2021, 17:30
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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The key point to consider here is potential exposure, which you mentioned - I think it's pretty clear that almost every town and city in the world gives you the "opportunity" to be exposed to covid at the moment ...

As for waiting ten years for the vaccine to be "tried and tested" - you'd like to be in lockdown for over a decade? Many governments have said that's the alternative to having the bulk of the population vaccinated ...
Yes the near certainty of being exposed is 1 of the 3 requirements that are met. The other 2 are not.

Secondly you propose the alternative to the vaccination is lockdown indefinitely. That is a strawman as that is not the alternative. Lockdown, and in fact all the measures, are in place because the amount of IC beds is limited so they try to avoid too many people needing these at the same time. The whole population getting covid is not a problem (and happens for many deseases) and certainly not the reason for the measures.
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Old 02.04.2021, 17:33
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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Unfortunately, I'm in vaccination group N - so will have to wait a while until it's my turn.

I just wonder if all those people that are so strongly in favor of the vaccination passport currently visit public places or have any social contacts, as they are health risks according to their own standards.
Yes, I am still isolating. I only go out to the supermarket or the pharmacy when it is absolutely necessary. I avoid peak periods and always wear my mask.

I am hopeful that I am now protected, but I am not going to bet my life on it.
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Old 02.04.2021, 17:35
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

Wachtword.

You haven't been here very long. I am not going to waste time on your posts until you have built up a reputation.

It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and prove it.
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Old 02.04.2021, 17:59
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

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It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than to open it and prove it.
Indeed.
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Old 02.04.2021, 18:07
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Re: Controversy surrounding the introduction of Covid Passports

if everyone applied your standard, no vaccine would exist because 10 years prove nothing if no one gets it.

We would also be stuck in lockdown as no one vaccinated = never enough ICU beds without massnahmen until at least 60% got covid. So years of lockdown.

You are free to do whatever you want, but it's an egotistical way of thinking that relies on others taking the vaccine to fix the problem instead of you.

Last edited by Murloc; 02.04.2021 at 18:07. Reason: typo
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