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  #61  
Old 28.05.2021, 18:44
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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I'd rather think machines and their components have a life counted in hours of operation. If they don't run, they don't degrade. But, it will take months/years for an investigation to get to this point.
Leave your car or motorcycle sitting for a few years, then get back to me on this.

Tom

P.S. I recently prepared one of my bikes for MFK (which I passed no problem, though they did tell me to replace the license plate). Anyway, this included fitting the OEM carbs that had been sitting in a box for 5 years, which immediately started leaking, the accelerator pumps wouldn't prime, etc., and took me half a day to get into running order!
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  #62  
Old 28.05.2021, 18:48
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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In Switzerland, but where exactly?
I'd rather be in Wallis rather than Schwyz.

Or in France...?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-...able_car_crash

Tragic. It happened in quite a few places, and none of them where one would have expected (except for Italy, maybe)...
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  #63  
Old 28.05.2021, 18:56
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Leave your car or motorcycle sitting for a few years, then get back to me on this.

Tom

P.S. I recently prepared one of my bikes for MFK (which I passed no problem, though they did tell me to replace the license plate). Anyway, this included fitting the OEM carbs that had been sitting in a box for 5 years, which immediately started leaking, the accelerator pumps wouldn't prime, etc., and took me half a day to get into running order!
They told you to replace your license plate?
From TI to what?
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  #64  
Old 28.05.2021, 21:40
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Leave your car or motorcycle sitting for a few years, then get back to me on this.

Tom

P.S. I recently prepared one of my bikes for MFK (which I passed no problem, though they did tell me to replace the license plate). Anyway, this included fitting the OEM carbs that had been sitting in a box for 5 years, which immediately started leaking, the accelerator pumps wouldn't prime, etc., and took me half a day to get into running order!
We closed everything on March 2020, is it a few years already? But, from certain perspective you're right, I'd rather buy a 30 year old car with 200K km instead of 10K km. Similar to what amogles mentioned, the optimal is between minimum and maximum operation hours for a defined time period.
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Old 02.06.2021, 17:30
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

Seems like the emergency brake may have been disabled since 2014!

"A cable car expert has alleged that earlier videos he took suggest the emergency brake was already disabled in 2014 on the mountain cable car that plunged near Lake Maggiore in Italy.

Fourteen people were killed and a boy was critically injured in the disaster.

The technician has already admitted installing a fork-shaped bracket to deactivate the emergency brake.

Michael Meier, who filmed the cable car several times, said the same bracket was in use as early as 2014."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57327552
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  #66  
Old 02.06.2021, 18:37
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

This is a disaster. However, how would we discuss the accident if it happened in France?

I say France not because I am a bigot racist, but because there the emergency brake on cable-cars is not compulsory (while in Italy it is, so I am not downplaying the responsibility of whoever "tampered" with the cable car).

On a side note: how many people have a fire extinguisher in their kitchen? No, they are not that difficult to use, no they are not compulsory, yes what happens when your kitchen catches fire, you made it out alive but the neighbours from the floors above not? Is it an accident? or is it negligence?
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  #67  
Old 02.06.2021, 18:45
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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They told you to replace your license plate?
From TI to what?
Restamping the same number, as it was beat up and had faded paint.

Tom
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  #68  
Old 02.06.2021, 18:46
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Seems like the emergency brake may have been disabled since 2014!

"A cable car expert has alleged that earlier videos he took suggest the emergency brake was already disabled in 2014 on the mountain cable car that plunged near Lake Maggiore in Italy.

Fourteen people were killed and a boy was critically injured in the disaster.

The technician has already admitted installing a fork-shaped bracket to deactivate the emergency brake.

Michael Meier, who filmed the cable car several times, said the same bracket was in use as early as 2014."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57327552
<<"He is not a criminal and would never have let people go up with the braking system blocked had he known that there was even a possibility that the cable would have broken," the lawyer told reporters. >> from your link.

Yeah, right. I mean it's these stupid engineers who install unnecessary braking systems.
That lawyer is a plonker. The technician got the lawyer he deserves, it seems.
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Old 02.06.2021, 19:25
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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The technician has already admitted installing a fork-shaped bracket to deactivate the emergency brake.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57327552
That red metal piece (bracket) looks heavy and it seems it requires several hours for manufacturing. The price of that metal component is probably in the range of hundreds to thousands of Euros.

Curiously, the owner of the installation and the chief of maintenance deny any knowledge. I guess the technician/mechanic bought the metal piece from his own salary and installed it without telling anyone
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Old 02.06.2021, 19:35
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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That red metal piece (bracket) looks heavy and it seems it requires several hours for manufacturing. The price of that metal component is probably in the range of hundreds to thousands of Euros.
Probably much less that 100, and they probably keep them on hand for this purpose.

Tom
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  #71  
Old 02.06.2021, 22:03
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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That red metal piece (bracket) looks heavy and it seems it requires several hours for manufacturing. The price of that metal component is probably in the range of hundreds to thousands of Euros.

Curiously, the owner of the installation and the chief of maintenance deny any knowledge. I guess the technician/mechanic bought the metal piece from his own salary and installed it without telling anyone
I think the scenario you are describing isn't quite correct... Apparently they use the bracket for maintenance (or at least it is acceptable to use during maintenance). It was probably supplied when the cable car was ordered. I assume there are maintenance instructions which state that it must never be used for passenger operation.
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Old 02.06.2021, 23:11
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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I think the scenario you are describing isn't quite correct... Apparently they use the bracket for maintenance (or at least it is acceptable to use during maintenance). It was probably supplied when the cable car was ordered. I assume there are maintenance instructions which state that it must never be used for passenger operation.
I failed miserably at sarcasm.

Back to the topic, the system had 2 gondolas. One goes up while the other goes down an vice versa. However, while what remains of one gondola is on the news, what happened to the other one?

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Verbania Prosecutor Olimpia Bossi outlined the contours of her investigation based on what she said was objective, empirical fact of what occurred: “The brakes of the security system didn’t work. Otherwise the cabin would have stopped,” she said. “Why that happened is naturally under investigation.”

In on-camera comments to LaPresse news agency and other reporters in her office, Bossi noted that the emergency brake had engaged on the other cable car that was traveling in the opposite direction, down the mountain.
https://apnews.com/article/world-new...84601a80cbd496

I ignore the current regulations in Italy. As bowlie mentioned, maybe an emergency brake is not required by current regulations. But, considering the people of the other gondola are alive, the breaks will become important. At least in Italy.
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  #73  
Old 02.06.2021, 23:43
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Back to the topic, the system had 2 gondolas. One goes up while the other goes down an vice versa. However, while what remains of one gondola is on the news, what happened to the other one?
Based on the news the fallen one was a few meters from the top station when the cable ripped. This leaves us two options:
- emergency brake was not deactivated in the lower cabin, thus held it
- emergency brake was also deactivated, in this case it slid that few meters to the lower station, nobody got hurt
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  #74  
Old 03.06.2021, 02:14
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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I ignore the current regulations in Italy. As bowlie mentioned, maybe an emergency brake is not required by current regulations. But, considering the people of the other gondola are alive, the breaks will become important. At least in Italy.
You are missing a bit of history here. In July 1986 the cable of a cable car in the Dolomites snapped. At the time the experts were debating whether a cable can possibly cut, even if properly mantained. That accident did not find an explanation.

But

That cable car had an automatic system installed (who knows why): exactly the brake we are discussing today regarding this 2021 accident. In 1986 on that cable car it was in fully working condition. Results of the 1986 accident: 3 occupants, one broken foot.

Brakes were already important. In Italy, the law to make them compulsory followed shortly after that accident.
Who knows what went through the mind of that technician that blocked the emergency system two weeks ago. And who knows what is going through the mind of all the european countries that do not require the installation of such a system (I know about France, maybe others?).
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Old 03.06.2021, 11:08
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Based on the news the fallen one was a few meters from the top station when the cable ripped. This leaves us two options:
- emergency brake was not deactivated in the lower cabin, thus held it
- emergency brake was also deactivated, in this case it slid that few meters to the lower station, nobody got hurt
The prosecutor said the emergency brake activated in the 2nd gondola. Even a short distance of uncontrolled descent and then crash is enough to cause sever injuries.

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You are missing a bit of history here. In July 1986 the cable of a cable car in the Dolomites snapped. At the time the experts were debating whether a cable can possibly cut, even if properly mantained. That accident did not find an explanation.

That cable car had an automatic system installed (who knows why): exactly the brake we are discussing today regarding this 2021 accident. In 1986 on that cable car it was in fully working condition. Results of the 1986 accident: 3 occupants, one broken foot.

Brakes were already important. In Italy, the law to make them compulsory followed shortly after that accident. Who knows what went through the mind of that technician that blocked the emergency system two weeks ago. And who knows what is going through the mind of all the european countries that do not require the installation of such a system (I know about France, maybe others?).
Thanks for the clarification. So, this type of brakes are mandated by law in IT to carry passengers.

I guess one goal of the investigation will be to find out since when the emergency brakes where deactivated. The company is telling the story of recent maintenance work, some guy showed up photos and videos from several years ago and the component to disable the brakes was already there. It would be really interesting if the prosecutor makes a call for witnesses' photos and videos. It's a tourist attraction, there should be plenty of evidence, even if it's 100% unintentional.
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  #76  
Old 03.06.2021, 12:45
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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You are missing a bit of history here. In July 1986 the cable of a cable car in the Dolomites snapped. At the time the experts were debating whether a cable can possibly cut, even if properly mantained. That accident did not find an explanation.

But

That cable car had an automatic system installed (who knows why): exactly the brake we are discussing today regarding this 2021 accident. In 1986 on that cable car it was in fully working condition. Results of the 1986 accident: 3 occupants, one broken foot.

Brakes were already important. In Italy, the law to make them compulsory followed shortly after that accident.
Who knows what went through the mind of that technician that blocked the emergency system two weeks ago. And who knows what is going through the mind of all the european countries that do not require the installation of such a system (I know about France, maybe others?).
We know what went through the mind of the technician (he said so): He (and probably the visitors and his boss) was annoyed about the repetitive malfunctioning of the brake, which caused lots of delays.
But you're right, there is a thing to wonder about: What went through his mind when he approached fixing the problem and chose to just block it completely, including braking the law. Probably nothing.
After jail they should put him on life-long unemployment money. Who knows if he generally solves problems in this manner.
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  #77  
Old 03.06.2021, 13:54
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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Based on the news the fallen one was a few meters from the top station when the cable ripped. This leaves us two options:
- emergency brake was not deactivated in the lower cabin, thus held it
- emergency brake was also deactivated, in this case it slid that few meters to the lower station, nobody got hurt
There may also be mechanisms that automatically hold and stop a broken cable. A bit like the safety belt in your car. If you pull gently it rolls out, but if you tug too hard it stops and stays stopped until you release the pressure. So just because the cable on one side broke and thus lost tension this does not necessarily mean that this loss of tension propagated to the other side.
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Old 03.06.2021, 14:48
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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The prosecutor said the emergency brake activated in the 2nd gondola. Even a short distance of uncontrolled descent and then crash is enough to cause sever injuries.
Maybe it was empty uphill towards end of the day?

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There may also be mechanisms that automatically hold and stop a broken cable. A bit like the safety belt in your car. If you pull gently it rolls out, but if you tug too hard it stops and stays stopped until you release the pressure. So just because the cable on one side broke and thus lost tension this does not necessarily mean that this loss of tension propagated to the other side.
isn't it one cable?
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  #79  
Old 03.06.2021, 15:17
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

Could not happen in Switzerland...

unless

https://www.letemps.ch/suisse/teleph...haine-securite


And maintenance catchup is the weak point when such a complex system lies idle for long than usual:


«Si une installation est à l’arrêt pendant une période prolongée, tous les travaux de maintenance nécessaires qui n’ont pas été effectués pendant cette période doivent être rattrapés avant la reprise de l’exploitation»
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Old 03.06.2021, 15:40
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Re: Cable car accident near Lake Maggiore

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isn't it one cable?
Yes, but it's attached so that there is an uphill side and a downhill side.

If the downhill side breaks, should be no problem, but the uphill side breaking with no brakes is a problem!

Tom
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