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Old 25.05.2021, 15:37
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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That condition has a name. When memories from the past long gone are intact but more recent ones are forgotten: Malaysia Air Flight 17.
That’s a totally different situation. The Malaysian flight was shot down by some “Ukrainian rebels” with a weapon they most likely didn’t actually understand. They pointed it at what they thought was an enemy Antonov and shot down an airliner at random- within minutes were there others planes like a Singapore Airlines one in the area. Not sure if it matches the definition of accident, but probably a mix of accident, incompetence and alcohol while operating a BUK... this case was carefully planned and executed. It’s a deliberate action and fully accepting to cross the line of international laws. In that sense is it indeed much more comparable to the US drone program, which consist of targeted executions based on poor intel and accepting “collateral damage” which would probably be ruled as war crimes if the US would join the international court... which they won’t.
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  #62  
Old 25.05.2021, 15:40
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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You don't shoot down a civilian passenger plane by a see-air missile by mistake. Nor a small civilian plane.
You do if you have a wrong intel (or if there is a tense stressful situation and a person responsible makes a mistake under pressure), it has happened a number of times.
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Old 25.05.2021, 15:44
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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You do if you have a wrong intel, it has happened a number of times.
So it was a totally innocent mistake to shoot it down, over Iranian territory no less, nothing worth mentioning.

Yeah, could happen to anybody, it's a completely normal thing.
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Old 25.05.2021, 15:46
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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So it was a totally innocent mistake to shoot it down, over Iranian territory no less, nothing worth mentioning.

Yeah, could happen to anybody, it's a completely normal thing.
I am not approving it. I am just saying that it is an unrelated example. An unrelated kind of incidents.
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Old 25.05.2021, 17:25
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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In 1988 the US military shot down Iran Air flight 655, a civilian passenger jet, killing all 290 passengers.
This is situation is not even remotely comparable to the current situation in Belarus. There's a rational and logical explanation of the entire chain of events that lead to this clear and unfortunately avoidable mistake by the US military. While the USA has conducted many indefensible military actions around the world, this one was not one of them. In particular, there's neither a reason nor an evidence to suggest that shooting down this Iranian flight was intentional. The US had absolutely nothing to gain from that and quite a lot to lose.

I'm sorry, but you clearly showed in this thread that you don't know a lot about this tragic incident. I recommend to read about this further and try to do it without putting a clearly biased and political view that distorts the events. Unfortunately, if one starts the research with a clearly predefined hypothesis, it's not difficult to cherry pick "proofs" to validate his own opinions.

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In in 2001, a US fighter jet shot down a Cessna 185, OB-1408, a small civilian plane carrying a family of four suspected of smuggling drugs, killing 2 of the 4.
It was a fighter jet from the Peruvian Air Force. The action was conducted by the Peruvian military under assistance from the CIA and the Peruvian pilot made the decision to shoot down the plane. Again, an undeniable American fault. But where's the intent?

But let's say those situations are in any way comparable, let's even assume that these were clearly intentional actions conducted by the US government with a clear purpose - even if the facts deny such interpretation. Can you name at least one notable political opponent of the Washington regime that has been killed in those actions?

Last edited by yarpen; 25.05.2021 at 17:36.
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Old 25.05.2021, 17:51
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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And your point is? I see nobody defend Russia or Belarus.
What's your point in bringing the US into the issue? Iran shot down an Ukraine plane only a o couple years ago. The old USSR shot down a South Korea plane back on 1983. It's almost like armies and navies have no systems in place to avoid human errors. My point is the US army/navy is not the only one in the world that needs to observed and kept under control. Governments of any flavor can be as bad or worse than the US.

Back to Belarus, there's not even a war going on there, right?
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Old 25.05.2021, 17:56
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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But let's say those situations are in any way comparable, let's even assume that these were clearly intentional actions conducted by the US government with a clear purpose - even if the facts deny such interpretation. Can you name at least one notable political opponent of the Washington regime that has been killed in those actions?
The point is that the US keep shooting down airplanes, and murdering civilians by the thousands, that's considered acceptable. However when another state illegally forces a plane to land that's grounds for utter outrage.

Maybe you see no double standards. I do.
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Old 25.05.2021, 18:35
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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The point is that the US keep shooting down airplanes, and murdering civilians by the thousands, that's considered acceptable. However when another state illegally forces a plane to land that's grounds for utter outrage.

Maybe you see no double standards. I do.
Nobody reasonable defends those US actions or considers them to be acceptable. While I'm sure you'll find some hardcore and extreme US political activists that are going to defend any action conducted by the US military, in reality both actions led to an international reactions. In particular, the US has suspended the air denial support program in the South America. If their actions were considered acceptable, then why would they stop?

The problem is not with alleged double standards but with the straw man argument you created here.
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Old 25.05.2021, 18:51
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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The point is that the US keep shooting down airplanes, and murdering civilians by the thousands, that's considered acceptable. However when another state illegally forces a plane to land that's grounds for utter outrage.

Maybe you see no double standards. I do.
It's just a different category of an incident.
It's one thing to purposefully attack a civil airplane to get some sort of a political gain, and to attack it accidentally and apologize about it.
I know no apologies can compensate for human lives, but it happens, it happened to Iran too not a while ago, as they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft.
Also, it is untrue that there is no reaction to such tragic events.

If a rule is broken unwillingly and clearly without any gain is one thing, but when a rule is broken on purpose it is a totally different story.
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Old 25.05.2021, 19:27
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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exactly. so he knew before booking the flight that it would pass over Belarus and could have taken different flights that avoid their airspace.
Passengers do not know the route . It's captain and co-pilot who do know it (as they request it - or actually it's done on their behalf mostly).

When you ask me - I'd have never done what he did however he was appointed some state security based on reasonable intel that he may be captured in EU member states and transported to Belarus .
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Old 25.05.2021, 19:31
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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The whole story is very strange. The plane was within 30 km from the border, two minutes — and the plane would have left the belarusian airspace and entered Lithuania. How could they threaten the passenger plane with the fighter jet and make it change the route so abruptly? The fighter jet must have been extremely aggressive, and this is just not acceptable. I don’t get it, did the belarusian authorities go crazy?
According to informations in the news there was no jet at the turn-around point so no, there was no manoeuvres however it was enough to declare airspace they been approaching as closed-military-risk zone and request immediate change of course , pilot has to comply and ensure security of all passengers - there is no option at his hand.

plane were accompanied to Minsk landing as it's standard
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  #72  
Old 25.05.2021, 19:37
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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You don't shoot down a civilian passenger plane by a see-air missile by mistake. Nor a small civilian plane.
actually you do .. as most are fire-and-forget and heat-homing head
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  #73  
Old 25.05.2021, 21:10
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

From the Washington post.
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Belarus’s skies were clear of nearly all air traffic Tuesday as carriers avoided the airspace amid growing international punishment and pressure on President Alexander Lukashenko after Belarus forced an airliner to land to arrest opposition journalist Roman Protasevich.

E.U. leaders also barred the country’s national airline, Belavia, from flying over or landing in E.U. territory — a blow to the Belarusian economy but also to Belarusians who hope to escape Lukashenko’s rule. Many land border crossings are closed due to coronavirus restrictions, further limiting movement.
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  #74  
Old 25.05.2021, 21:29
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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According to informations in the news there was no jet at the turn-around point so no, there was no manoeuvres however it was enough to declare airspace they been approaching as closed-military-risk zone and request immediate change of course , pilot has to comply and ensure security of all passengers - there is no option at his hand.

plane were accompanied to Minsk landing as it's standard
I thought it was the fighter jet that forced the plane to change course.

BBC reported that:

"If a military aircraft intercepts you and gives you command, you obey". That was the view of one pilot who spoke to the BBC, who said the decision of Belarus to force down a passenger aircraft was "absolutely reckless".
Belarus scrambled a fighter jet to divert a Ryanair passenger plane - flying from Greece, bound for Lithuania - to land in Minsk on Sunday, claiming a bomb was on board. None was found.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57236086
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Old 25.05.2021, 22:00
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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I thought it was the fighter jet that forced the plane to change course.

BBC reported that:

"If a military aircraft intercepts you and gives you command, you obey". That was the view of one pilot who spoke to the BBC, who said the decision of Belarus to force down a passenger aircraft was "absolutely reckless".
Belarus scrambled a fighter jet to divert a Ryanair passenger plane - flying from Greece, bound for Lithuania - to land in Minsk on Sunday, claiming a bomb was on board. None was found.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57236086
I do not think they interviewed "the pilot" ..rather "a pilot" to say what he'd do etc

Minsk airport was a secondary/backup airport en-route so pilots knew approach , weather , conditions on ground - that is normal flight plan ( should destination airport not accept due to weather or else ) and budget-airlines would not pick airport 200nm away as means it be few tons more of fuel to carry and to pay for at landing (airports charge for landing weight) - so Helsinki or Moscow was unlikely secondary , Kiev may been .
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  #76  
Old 25.05.2021, 22:05
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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I thought it was the fighter jet that forced the plane to change course.

BBC reported that:

"If a military aircraft intercepts you and gives you command, you obey". That was the view of one pilot who spoke to the BBC, who said the decision of Belarus to force down a passenger aircraft was "absolutely reckless".
Belarus scrambled a fighter jet to divert a Ryanair passenger plane - flying from Greece, bound for Lithuania - to land in Minsk on Sunday, claiming a bomb was on board. None was found.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57236086
I honestly dont think this matters too much - the fact that nobody denies is that Belarus used a fake bomb threat to force a plane to land. Wether this happened at gun point or by "just" abusing safety protocols doesnt really matter. In either way will the Ryanair pilot just do as he is told by air traffic control. Because he could not possibly know who is on his plane and what is going on in general. Thats exactly why we have air traffic control and exactly why this is such a no-no to do... it opens the door for a lot of other countries that have so far not dared to do anything like this. If you fly from Europe to Asia do you automatically cross a lot of countries you dont necessary want to stop in. Nobody wants to now have to consider who might or might not be booked on the same flight.
Its pretty hard to actually punish the Belarussian regime as they are so locked off. But I hope the EU finds some ways that really hurt the leaders and makes it clear to the world that this is not acceptable. I think the responsible people should be internationally trialled for piracy.
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Old 25.05.2021, 22:13
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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It's just a different category of an incident.
It's one thing to purposefully attack a civil airplane to get some sort of a political gain, and to attack it accidentally and apologize about it.
As far as I know USA never apologized for accidently shooting down the Iranian passenger plane

Source : which is not really an apology
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Old 25.05.2021, 22:24
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

Dear Mr President of Belarus,

My mother in law is taking Air France flight number AF1268 from Paris to Moscow and will be flying over your country at around 8.00 pm.

I heard her loudly criticize your regime during Sunday lunch. You're welcome.
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Old 25.05.2021, 22:48
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

Good arguments on this thread, bottom line is the US crossed a red line with Morales in 2013. The EU bent over like they always do for the US. It was shocking. A scandal. A complete up on behalf of the EU. It showed our gross incompetence. It showed that today the EU is only good for one thing which is to be easily controlled by the US.

The US is scum - we can all agree on that.

Lukashenko did something intolerable. It is beyond acceptable what he did. You do NOT stop a passenger airplane to capture someone during peaceful time (and during war time either!). If I have to compare the two: one is a diplomatic incident of the most outrageous kind, you do not touch a diplomatic plan. The other is slightly less worse, but akin to: what is best, getting killed with a knife or with a bullet, in both instances the result is the same...

Belarus is less scum in this instance, but still scum - we can all agree on that.

The US shooting down an Iranian civilian plane, that's old history, but killing civilians is a national pass time for our dear US military. So nothing really to compare, what is to compare is the EU reaction, this is what matters.

What I want? STRONG EUROPEAN PARTIES - that are united, we need Brussel to be broken to pieces and a strong union to come out of its ashes. I want US military bases out of the EU. This only proves one thing: we need to vote and put people who will put the EU first. Currently the EU lap dog will do whatever the US says. Disgusting.
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Old 25.05.2021, 22:56
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

By the way, we might be buying gasoline from oil US refined in Belarus. From Russian oil is 100% sure So, it's a mess:
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U.S. Oil for Belarus Reaches Europe as Country Seeks to Reduce Reliance on Russia (6/9/2020)

A tanker carrying the first shipment of U.S. crude oil destined for Belarus reached the port of Klaipeda in Lithuania late on Friday.

A pipeline connects Belarus refineries to Russian oil fields, making those oil transports the cheapest available. But the route was disrupted on Jan. 1 after Belarus failed to sign an oil supply deal with Russia.

Belarus is looking to reduce its near complete energy dependence on its close ally Russia, after a row with Moscow this year over the price it pays for Russian oil. The dispute was resolved, but Belarus said it still wants to diversify its oil imports.

The first shipment of U.S. crude to Belarus was unveiled in May by U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.

Belarus has this year imported seven seaborne crude oil cargoes via Klaipeda - of Norway's Johan Sverdrup grade, Saudi Arabia's Arab Light grade and Russian Urals grade. It has also imported Azerbaijan's Azeri Light via the port of Yuzhny in Ukraine.

"Once you show that you have the possibility to diversify your sources, you are stronger in dealing with the main supplier," Lithuania's Energy Minister Zygimantas Vaiciunas told Reuters.

Belarus' purchase of 80,000 tonnes of U.S. Bakken oil imported via Klaipeda is yet another trial, traders said, and it was unlikely such shipments will become regular.
https://pgjonline.com/news/2020/06-j...ance-on-russia
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