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  #81  
Old 25.05.2021, 22:59
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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The US is scum - we can all agree on that.

Belarus is less scum in this instance, but still scum - we can all agree on that.

I want US military bases out of the EU.
No, we can't agree on that.

We need to stay united as the Western world against external threats. EU needs to be more reactive and stronger though.
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  #82  
Old 25.05.2021, 23:01
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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As far as I know USA never apologized for accidently shooting down the Iranian passenger plane

Source : which is not really an apology
How is it not? Or it is sarcasm? Anyways, this kind of incidents is unrelated.
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  #83  
Old 26.05.2021, 00:37
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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How is it not? Or it is sarcasm? Anyways, this kind of incidents is unrelated.
Off topic, since you asked; I don't see the words sorry or apologize. I also see that its a statement by then president to cover their backsides.

FYI: The Navy radar clearly see the high flying aircraft, it was not in a dive towards the ship (which is what any fighter would do at the time) and it was taking the standard flight path (unfortunately delayed). There are loads of documentaries showing clearly that US navy clearly missed to identify a civilian aircraft from a military one and some trigger happy commander ordered the attack. Moreover they got a hero's welcome back at home.

Quote from the report:

While he said he regretted the outcome, Captain Rogers made no apologies for his actions, invoking an old Arab proverb that summons up images of the harsh history and constant wariness of the Middle East: ''A man in the desert meets no friends.''


Anyway, what's done is done. Hopefully they learnt from the mistakes.

Apologies for derailing the thread.
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  #84  
Old 26.05.2021, 11:16
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

There was no fighter jet or helicopter scrambled to intercept the RYR airplane.

When USA does the same thing it's called "the ability to refuse entry into its territory of any flight it deems to present a threat to its security is recognized by numerous countries and is consistent with international agreements,"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/aeromex...nger-arrested/

USA = RUSSIA. Same thing different packaging.
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Old 26.05.2021, 11:20
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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There was no fighter jet or helicopter scrambled to intercept the RYR airplane.

When USA does the same thing it's called "the ability to refuse entry into its territory of any flight it deems to present a threat to its security is recognized by numerous countries and is consistent with international agreements,"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/aeromex...nger-arrested/

USA = RUSSIA. Same thing different packaging.
Thats bullshit. Because neither Russia nor Belarus refused entry of any sort. Quite the opposite, they forced a landing WITHIN their territory to arrest a passenger. That is in no way consistent with any international agreement. If they had refused entry, the plane had to land in Ukraine or elsewhere and the local authorities could then decide if they want to arrest the journalist and send him to Lukashenko... which they had never done.
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  #86  
Old 26.05.2021, 11:27
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Thats bullshit. Because neither Russia nor Belarus refused entry of any sort. Quite the opposite, they forced a landing to arrest a passenger. That is in no way consistent with any international agreement.
RYR flight was not forced to land. Belarus ATC simply recommended they land at Minsk due to bomb threat they received. Pilots simply obliged. They could have continued or use alternate airport.

USA denying entry and forcing the plane to land in Canada and arresting a passenger - that looks quite OK to you?

BTW the crew of USS Vincennes received commendation medals for rocketing the IranAir and killing 290 civilians, that's is how much sorry the USA was about this case.
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Old 26.05.2021, 11:32
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

Is it possible that the KGB hacked the Ryanair checkin system? If Roman had checked in online, this would have given the KGB time to get four of their men on the same plane.
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Old 26.05.2021, 11:33
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

<<When an aircraft flies through international skies, aircraft have the nationality of the state in which they are registered. >>
I was wondering about that and found the answer in the bbc link.

So Belarus basically invaded Poland.
<<In this case, the Ryanair plane is understood to be registered in Poland to "Ryanair Sun", a subsidiary of the Irish airline. When the plane is flying, regardless of its position in the skies, it remains of Polish nationality. >>

What's Poland got to say?
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Old 26.05.2021, 11:40
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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RYR flight was not forced to land. Belarus ATC simply recommended they land at Minsk due to bomb threat they received. Pilots simply obliged. They could have continued or use alternate airport.

USA denying entry and forcing the plane to land in Canada and arresting a passenger - that looks quite OK to you?

BTW the crew of USS Vincennes received commendation medals for rocketing the IranAir and killing 290 civilians, that's is how much sorry the USA was about this case.
This is all just "whataboutism"... the exact line of argument "Russia today" uses for anything the Russians do. There is a big difference: They did not receive a bomb threat, they made one up. Or do you honestly believe that Hamas wanted to bomb a Ryanair plane from Athens to Vilnius? Its a secret service operation which clearly did not meet international agreements. Of course will the pilot follow ATC if they lie to him and pretend his passengers are in danger.

What the Americans did was very different as they - rather harshly - enforced their jurisdiction over their airspace. The guy got arrested in Canada and it was the Canadians who were free to assess the situation and send the guy over to the US or not. Do you see the difference?

Update: Now do the Belarussians no longer claim that it was Hamas who threatened the bombing... they allegedly were tipped off by the Swiss police ;-)
https://www.20min.ch/story/alexander...z-306173528963

Last edited by Treverus; 26.05.2021 at 11:54.
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Old 26.05.2021, 12:12
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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This is all just "whataboutism"... the exact line of argument "Russia today" uses for anything the Russians do. There is a big difference: They did not receive a bomb threat, they made one up. Or do you honestly believe that Hamas wanted to bomb a Ryanair plane from Athens to Vilnius? Its a secret service operation which clearly did not meet international agreements. Of course will the pilot follow ATC if they lie to him and pretend his passengers are in danger.

What the Americans did was very different as they - rather harshly - enforced their jurisdiction over their airspace. The guy got arrested in Canada and it was the Canadians who were free to assess the situation and send the guy over to the US or not. Do you see the difference?

Update: Now do the Belarussians no longer claim that it was Hamas who threatened the bombing... they allegedly were tipped off by the Swiss police ;-)
https://www.20min.ch/story/alexander...z-306173528963
Perhaps your translation is better than mine (google) but he said the warning came from Switzerland, but not the Swiss police.

Last edited by bowlie; 26.05.2021 at 12:20. Reason: Typo
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  #91  
Old 26.05.2021, 12:14
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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So Belarus basically invaded Poland.
<<In this case, the Ryanair plane is understood to be registered in Poland to "Ryanair Sun", a subsidiary of the Irish airline. When the plane is flying, regardless of its position in the skies, it remains of Polish nationality. >>

What's Poland got to say?
Poland? Just said what you already mentioned: https://www.gov.pl/web/diplomacy/mfa...plane-in-minsk

Further interesting commentary from a law blog. There's a discussion on the international agreements Belarus has signed that concern this incident and two stinging questions: i) Is the EU useful for defense or not?, and ii) Will airlines deny boarding to politically risky people? https://www.lawfareblog.com/belarus-...l-law-analysis

In the first instance, the burden falls greatest on the EU. Flight FR4978 was an intra-EU flight by an EU-flagged plane operated by an EU-domiciled airline. For the EU, this question is more than about ensuring freedom of overflight in the general sense. It is about its capacity to protect those who operate within its Member States from a rogue and isolated state on the bloc’s eastern border. If the EU cannot do that, then one begins to wonder what its value is, in terms of collective security.

...the international community should not balk from trying to bring Belarus into line here via coordinated political and legal means. If the international community fails to take action, other states, who are doubtlessly watching carefully, may get the idea that this kind of behavior will be generally tolerated without serious repercussions. Refusal to act may therefore usher in a new reality of international air travel—one in which airlines either refuse to fly over certain regions, or will not carry known political dissidents on their aircraft, for fear of state-backed hijacking.
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  #92  
Old 26.05.2021, 12:27
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Perhaps your translation is better than mine (google) but he said the warning came from Switzerland, but not the Swiss police.
Sorry. The article doesnt mention the police, it says "the Swiss authorities are investigating the claims".
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Old 26.05.2021, 12:44
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Is it possible that the KGB hacked the Ryanair checkin system? If Roman had checked in online, this would have given the KGB time to get four of their men on the same plane.
He was on a know trip to Athens to photograph Tikhanovskaya, and just before he departed from Athens to Vilnius, Roman complained to a colleague over Telegram about a suspicious man who was standing in the boarding queue trying to photograph his documents, asking a silly a question and then leaving without on-boarding.
Other, less certain leads are,
- just a few days earlier an aircraft fell down (2 pilots died) in a similar area where the jet started, there are rumors it could have been a training
- 3 passengers left in Minsk without proceeding to Vilnius - there are rumors those could be agents. In general, there are speculations there was someone trying to do provocations onboard.

Last edited by Meh; 26.05.2021 at 13:16.
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Old 26.05.2021, 12:52
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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There was no fighter jet or helicopter scrambled to intercept the RYR airplane.
There was a jet, even Russia and Belarus do not deny or even confirm that.

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When USA does the same thing it's called "the ability to refuse entry into its territory of any flight it deems to present a threat to its security is recognized by numerous countries and is consistent with international agreements,"
The threat was invented by the regime. Vilnius was closer. The pilot was not receiving much of explanations from the dispatcher. The pilot was risking lives of all passengers due to the Belarusian threat, if he did not proceed with landing in Minsk.

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USA = RUSSIA. Same thing different packaging.
Russia is a part of a much worse world, its creations are disastrous (the Warsaw bloc, North Korea, Cuba), and is the enemy of the Western world. There is no reason for Europeans to support it neither to put an equal sign near our greatest ally which is not perfect, of course.
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Old 26.05.2021, 13:12
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

Good link. Thanks.
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  #96  
Old 26.05.2021, 13:35
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

USA , Russia requires passenger information for overflights - they didn't need to spend much time finding out who is on-board
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Old 26.05.2021, 13:43
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Is it possible that the KGB hacked the Ryanair checkin system? If Roman had checked in online, this would have given the KGB time to get four of their men on the same plane.
There would be no need in hacking any booking system, since they have KGB agents permanently following most Belarussian opposition activists 247. A trivial probabilistic analysis and a flex booking provide all they need with good enough precision.
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Old 26.05.2021, 13:54
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Sorry. The article doesnt mention the police, it says "the Swiss authorities are investigating the claims".
It now says that Bern (the EDA) have denied the claims. Google translating...:

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The Swiss authorities had no knowledge of a bomb threat on the Ryanair Athens-Villnius flight. Accordingly, there was no report from Switzerland to the Belarusian authorities.
https://www.20min.ch/story/alexander...z-306173528963
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Old 26.05.2021, 14:11
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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RYR flight was not forced to land. Belarus ATC simply recommended they land at Minsk due to bomb threat they received. Pilots simply obliged. They could have continued or use alternate airport.
That's nonsense. From the point of the detour, the distance to Minsk was about twice that to Vilnius, and the actual fligh path about three times as long. If there were a bomb on board they'd have wanted to land asap.
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Old 26.05.2021, 14:28
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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It now says that Bern (the EDA) have denied the claims. Google translating...:



https://www.20min.ch/story/alexander...z-306173528963
Quoting 20min every two posts here, that's funny.

The world renowned journalists from 20min must be onto something.

I haven't read yet the opinion makers from Daily Mail.
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