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  #141  
Old 28.05.2021, 10:33
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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That thread has the same number of pages Evo Morales
spent on an Austrian jail: zero.
Evo Morales was NOT the target of that hijacking.
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  #142  
Old 28.05.2021, 10:51
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Evo Morales was NOT the target of that hijacking.
Axa is confused: Evo Morales was neither the target of the hijacking, nor would it matter for the objective judgement of the hijacking whether he, Snowden or someone else was or wasn't in jail. It's simply irrelevant and the fact that people bring such absurd and ludicrous arguments shows how one-sided and confused the majority of the posters are.
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  #143  
Old 28.05.2021, 10:55
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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That thread has the same number of pages Evo Morales spent on an Austrian jail: zero.
Of course, the point was not to jail Morales. The US (as stated by then-and-now State Dept spokesperson Jen Psaki) put this in motion, to see if they could capture Edward Snowden. Now to guess what would have happened to him in that case. Hint: Assange and the Baraitser ruling, though Snowden being an American citizen, you can also look at Manning.

As for Morales, the same power (State Dept, via OAS rather than NATO) did manage to force him into exile later. Until the people of Bolivia got payback, but that's a pending story.

Still, it is fair to wonder why there would have been no reaction on EF when two large countries bordering Switzerland forced a sovereign flight onto the ground of another country bordering Switzerland on behalf of a major state that is home to a good many EFers. Perhaps a deficit of information at the time?
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  #144  
Old 28.05.2021, 11:07
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Of course, the point was not to jail Morales. The US (as stated by then-and-now State Dept spokesperson Jen Psaki) put this in motion, to see if they could capture Edward Snowden. Now to guess what would have happened to him in that case. Hint: Assange and the Baraitser ruling, though Snowden being an American citizen, you can also look at Manning.
Nobody disagrees that the US oversteps lines quite often. I personally dont get why we keep discussing the Morales case while the Americans keep on bombing the crap out of at least seven countries since then... but anyways: You are very much jumping to conclusions here. Imagine Snowden was on that plane. He'd probably get arrested by the Austrians... and then a legal process will set in with a chance of an extradition on one side and the chance to get political asylum on the other extreme. I am not a lawyer specializing in Austrian law, but I am near certain that in Germany the courts would grant him asylum - even if Merkel would do anything she could to support her US buddies. And I'd say that he would have a fair legal system to challenge anything in Austria as well... very much more so than in the US.

In the Minsk case does hopefully nobody in his right mind claim that the opposition has a chance to get a fair trial... or not getting tortured. Because thats what the Lukashenko regime has proven over and over again is what they do.
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  #145  
Old 28.05.2021, 11:23
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Nobody disagrees that the US oversteps lines quite often. I personally dont get why we keep discussing the Morales case while the Americans keep on bombing the crap out of at least seven countries since then... but anyways: You are very much jumping to conclusions here. Imagine Snowden was on that plane. He'd probably get arrested by the Austrians... and then a legal process will set in with a chance of an extradition on one side and the chance to get political asylum on the other extreme. I am not a lawyer specializing in Austrian law, but I am near certain that in Germany the courts would grant him asylum - even if Merkel would do anything she could to support her US buddies. And I'd say that he would have a fair legal system to challenge anything in Austria as well... very much more so than in the US.

Your optimism behooves you. Still, it would be interesting to have evidence of Germany or Austria giving political asylum to any American citizen.


I would say great optimism in Germany's case, given what it let happen at the time. https://www.dw.com/en/cia-uses-germa...says/a-1792376
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  #146  
Old 28.05.2021, 11:40
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Hm, but do you understand that one bad deed doesn't legalize the other one. So, for a sake of keeping some ethical perspective let's go:
USA shooting down Iranian plane => BAD
Austrians playing lackeys for the USA => BAD
Lukašenko kidnapping planes => BAD

.....
and so on
Yes, Homo Sapiens had probably exterminate Neanderthals, but this doesn't mean that King Leopold was justified in Kongo, or that Srebrenica was ok
This excusing of wrongs with pointing on other, not connected wrongs tells a lot about people doing it. Something in a line: people are often bunch of hypocritical idiots, unable to critically evaluate themself.
And Russia is using the same way of thinking to justify occupation of Crimea, saying “look what Americans did in Yugoslavia”. People are the same everywhere.
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  #147  
Old 28.05.2021, 11:44
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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And Russia is using the same way of thinking to justify occupation of Crimea, saying “look what Americans did in Yugoslavia”. People are the same everywhere.
We're going down the rabbit hole......I better run while possible
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  #148  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:20
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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..: You are very much jumping to conclusions here. Imagine Snowden was on that plane. He'd probably get arrested by the Austrians...
While I agree with all what you wrote while technically above statement would be invalid - should Snowden be on the plane - he'd enjoy diplomatic immunity of his host "country" being Bolivia and its president.

Austria also has no jurisdiction over anybody on board of the plane that is Military plane.

Best they could do is let plane fly away in either case .

What is not the same and seem everyone forgets that is Snowden in fact released information that does threaten security of the country (USA) and likely today is used by Russian intelligence either to exploit it or understand what informations USA may be in possession of based on their conduct in the past as well Snowden could still be a thread by releasing more information or assisting in conducting and building similar espionage operation with know-how etc.

With Belarus - there was absolutely no information that this young man possessed obtained when working for a state being privileged to that he was sharing with EU/NATO

To me - Snowden morally did right thing however he betrayed his country releasing classified 'top secret' information to public and foreign intelligence.

Similar story to Snowden actually happened in UK around Iraq war in 2003 - Katharine Gun - while damages were 'smaller' and no security of UK was compromised by that information - she was cleared of her chargers even so she provided top-secret memo copy to the public.
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  #149  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:26
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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There is, unfortunately, a much deeper and worrisome reason behind as well. Ukraine was promised and signed a deal for preserving its territory with the US and EU in exchange for giving up its nuclear arsenal. It trusted the US, which was, of course, massive mistake. Putin calculated rightfully that the US will never send troops despite the signature. This showed that the US can promise you anything, but it wont really stand behind its promises.

.
No, EU didn't sign Budapest Memorandum.

- UK, US and Russia did

France and China joined some parts of that memorandum but not all.

Recently Ukraine is reconsidering to become nuclear power state again due to the fact they won't join NATO and cant benefit from nuclear-sharing .
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  #150  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:36
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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As said, the means used by the US with the assistance of the EU were more "clever". But all you list as differences are technicalities. The intention was the same: shut down government critics at any cost.
No, intentions are different way I see it

- Snowden - was and is active security thread to USA.
- Belarusian - he is nothing more than political figure with no possession of top-secret information that could hurt the state that he acquired on his own.

Expertise makes it dangerous in wrong hands , person voicing his opinion is just opponent but not dangerous to population of the country.
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  #151  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:46
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Your optimism behooves you. Still, it would be interesting to have evidence of Germany or Austria giving political asylum to any American citizen.
Dean Reed?
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  #152  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:01
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Dean Reed?
That Germany...
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  #153  
Old 28.05.2021, 16:39
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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No, EU didn't sign Budapest Memorandum.

- UK, US and Russia did

France and China joined some parts of that memorandum but not all.

Recently Ukraine is reconsidering to become nuclear power state again due to the fact they won't join NATO and cant benefit from nuclear-sharing .
Fair point, I stand corrected. Doesn't change my statement and view though.
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  #154  
Old 28.05.2021, 20:02
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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No, intentions are different way I see it

- Snowden - was and is active security thread to USA.
- Belarusian - he is nothing more than political figure with no possession of top-secret information that could hurt the state that he acquired on his own.

Expertise makes it dangerous in wrong hands , person voicing his opinion is just opponent but not dangerous to population of the country.

Really... which guy has worked for not one but two foreign governments?

I know I'd rather have that guy on my team. Just take the time to listen to him.
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  #155  
Old 28.05.2021, 21:59
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Really... which guy has worked for not one but two foreign governments?

I know I'd rather have that guy on my team. Just take the time to listen to him.
you seem to uncover the truth already one click away , what a surprise these surface exactly with rhetoric that is needed for certain people with well defined political agenda.

Would you seriously believe these are real ?

Have you ever consider why these are easy accessible with context that fits narrative ?

Have you had a chance to live in Communist country ?
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  #156  
Old 29.05.2021, 08:50
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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No, you don't get the sentiment. The point is not to justify what Lukashenko did because the Austrians did the same earlier. The point is to have the same level of outrage and response when a western country does it.

A bad deed is a bad deed irrelevant if it was done by an Austrian or a Belarussian
and yet our response is different, ask yourself why
You think I don't agree with this?
My response or instinct was to reject the victim card and think of what I see now. I just wouldn't let outrage for anyone's past misdeeds take over now. There's a situation at hand and yes, I'd be glad if people/govs managed to gather the right amount of outrage so this man will be released. Preferably alive and in one piece.
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  #157  
Old 29.05.2021, 08:59
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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you seem to uncover the truth already one click away , what a surprise these surface exactly with rhetoric that is needed for certain people with well defined political agenda.

Would you seriously believe these are real ?

Have you ever consider why these are easy accessible with context that fits narrative ?

Have you had a chance to live in Communist country ?
Would he own up to it, when you consider the "warm" reactions people have been getting? Basically - bad regime = your fault. Germany not paying reparations after they gassed most of your country = your fault. A dictator usurping power in your home place because they get a free pass in some US/Russia/China/EU quotas, oil or nuke deal shinenigans = your fault.

Gaburko, sezegnin - really good points you made.
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  #158  
Old 29.05.2021, 09:16
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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In the Minsk case does hopefully nobody in his right mind claim that the opposition has a chance to get a fair trial... or not getting tortured. Because thats what the Lukashenko regime has proven over and over again is what they do.
In the Minsk case and in Russia or China....you know, these sorts of regimes. I wish some people would be more consistent in their outrage.
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  #159  
Old 29.05.2021, 09:33
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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Are you writing from Belarus or from CH?

You may have missed it, but there's a lot of people in Western countries who disagrees with the actions of their current governments. These people do not take any action of their government or armies as moral by default. On the contrary, these opposition groups enjoy their freedom to scrutinize and criticize their governments.

The funny thing is Western countries are also regarded as decaying and weak precisely because there's no monolithic culture. There's respect for the heterogeneous mix of languages, religions, ethnicity, etc.

So, choose one. Western countries are: A) monolithic cultures that assess any action of their and foreign governments and armies as moral, or b) weak and decaying plural societies.
What if A+B ?
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Old 29.05.2021, 09:37
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Re: Ryanair plane forced to abort descent and forced to land in Weissrussland

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you seem to uncover the truth already one click away , what a surprise these surface exactly with rhetoric that is needed for certain people with well defined political agenda.

Would you seriously believe these are real ?

Have you ever consider why these are easy accessible with context that fits narrative ?

Have you had a chance to live in Communist country ?

Seriously... that's the level of denial?


And along the way you impugn both MSNBC and one of the few independent journalists in Germany... way to go!
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