January 6 US Capitol Insurrection - Page 12

marton · #**221** 17.01.2022, 11:40

	Quote:	komsomolez
	I don't claim anything. I was referring to the potential act of "not certifying the electoral college in Congress alone" where I am not sure this is so clearly falling within the definition of sedition legally.

	Quote:	Ouchboy
	11 oath keepers charged with seditious conspiracy by DOJ

Seems the DOJ does not agree with you.

kiwiguy08 · #**222** 17.01.2022, 13:42

	Quote:	3Wishes
	This must come from a privileged place or simply not knowing how things are going in the USA. The laws that Republicans are passing across the country are not to make elections more secure, at least for voters. Maybe more secure for Republicans by suppressing votes in urban areas. There's no widespread fraud as the Rs often claim. In-person voter impersonation is virtually non-existent. But we have photo ID. Mail-in ballots are not as easy to commit fraud with as people widely think. Yet now they want to limit things like drop boxes or absentee voting. Ballot tallying machines are not easily hacked or reprogrammed and are not changing votes one way or the other. Yet now there's a push to go back to hand counting. But that's inconsistent with Trump's insistence on knowing who won any race on election night. Humans cannot count ballots faster than machines, and they insert their own margin of error. I'll stop now.

Before I came here, I grew up in Connecticut, one of the bluest states in the country. Last normal election they did not have mail in ballots except for limited reasons, those ballots had to arrive by election date, polls closed at a normal time, and early voting wasn't even a thing.....in other words, way stricter than Georgia or Texas laws. Please spare the priviliged talk....

kiwiguy08 · #**223** 17.01.2022, 13:47

	Quote:	robBob
	It's the 2020's! https://www.ncsl.org/research/electi...ng-rights.aspx https://felonvoting.procon.org/numbe...ny-conviction/ http://www.bazelon.org/our-work/voting/

You are seriously comparing illegally denying citizens the right to vote based on creed to legally denying criminals the right to vote. (something that has been upheld by the supreme court)

komsomolez · #**224** 17.01.2022, 13:51

	Quote:	marton
	Seems the DOJ does not agree with you.

Seems like you still can't comprehend what I was saying at the time.

My question was whether the Eastman plan would amount to sedition. If not, one could still charge conspiracy to defraud the United States, which is of course a weaker charge.

Ato · #**225** 17.01.2022, 13:55

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	80% of americans support photo ID for voting....

They shouldn't stop there, it should be limited to land owners to stop the peasants calling the shots.

kiwiguy08 · #**226** 17.01.2022, 13:57

	Quote:	komsomolez
	In my view, the Dems have a problem in properly explaining what they really want to achieve with the voting rights bill. And they need to explain it in very practical terms. No normal person understands why photo ID is an issue.

In fact, 81% of Americans support Voter ID laws.....

kiwiguy08 · #**227** 17.01.2022, 14:01

	Quote:	Ato
	They shouldn't stop there, it should be limited to land owners to stop the peasants calling the shots.

Whatever floats your boat, I'm happy to leave the idea back in the 19th century

komsomolez · #**228** 17.01.2022, 14:01

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	In fact, 81% of Americans support Voter ID laws.....

Voter ID laws is a wide term, and it is probably more about implementation on state level. And that is my point - the Dems lose themselves in generic debates and don't do well in translating this into practical issues. Same with BBB.

TonyClifton · #**229** 17.01.2022, 14:06

You need to show a Covid pass to enter a restaurant.

You shouldn't have to show an ID to vote.

Same people.

This thread appears to have wondered off topic, so let's bring it right back by reminding ourselves there are still those who believe Jan 6 was a genuine insurrection

komsomolez · #**230** 17.01.2022, 14:14

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	This thread appears to have wondered off topic, so let's bring it right back by reminding ourselves there are still those who believe Jan 6 was a genuine insurrection

Breaking into the Capitol aside as we won't agree there: What in your view was the effort of decertifying the state election results in order to reinstate Trump? This was a planned effort to overthrow the election, and likely coordinated among Trump, Meadows, several senators.

In my view this was the bigger problem on Jan 6.

gwsorrells · #**231** 17.01.2022, 14:32

	Quote:	komsomolez
	Breaking into the Capitol aside as we won't agree there: What in your view was the effort of decertifying the state election results in order to reinstate Trump? This was a planned effort to overthrow the election, and likely coordinated among Trump, Meadows, several senators. In my view this was the bigger problem on Jan 6.

It is all part of the same issue. I think the goal of Jan 6 was to get congress to delay the certification for a couple of days. That would have allowed the Trump team time to bring the fake elector documents into the argument, and would have given Pence the cover he needed to turn the election back to the congress.

robBob · #**232** 17.01.2022, 14:45

	Quote:	kiwiguy08
	You are seriously comparing illegally denying citizens the right to vote based on creed to legally denying criminals the right to vote. (something that has been upheld by the supreme court)

Wasn't comparing. Simply illustrating that many citizens are not allowed to vote because they simply couldn't afford good lawyers. And many on top of that cannot vote ever again for life even after being so called rehabilitated. And to add humility in it all, many convicts are still head counted to determine the population of voting districts. So, a district where most of the population is in a state pen., just a few voters can determine heavily their delegate. So! Who is really stealing the elections?

marton · #**233** 17.01.2022, 14:55

	Quote:	gwsorrells
	It is all part of the same issue. I think the goal of Jan 6 was to get congress to delay the certification for a couple of days. That would have allowed the Trump team time to bring the fake elector documents into the argument, and would have given Pence the cover he needed to turn the election back to the congress.

You mean the fake elector documents that were submitted to Congress by Republicans in five states — Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, and Wisconsin — seeking to overturn Joe Biden’s 2020 election victory in those states by casting the state’s electoral votes for Donald Trump instead?

They were so obviously faked that they were immediately rejected.

American Oversight has obtained copies of phony electoral vote certificates from seven states that were submitted to Congress as part of the failed attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election, you can view them here.

bowlie · #**234** 17.01.2022, 14:56

	Quote:	komsomolez
	Voter ID laws is a wide term, and it is probably more about implementation on state level. And that is my point - the Dems lose themselves in generic debates and don't do well in translating this into practical issues. Same with BBB.

Voter ID, per se, is not a real issue. Every Swiss Voter has a Government issued ID card, but never has to show it when voting because we vote by mail.

If the states could guarantee that every voter would be issued an ID card, at a reasonable cost (say the voter’s salary for 1 hours work (and this could be zero))then this becomes a no brainer.

But rules, such as the one that applications would only be accepted on the fifth Wednesday of any month, make a mockery of the whole idea. It needs to be as simple as getting a driver’s license.

marton · #**235** 17.01.2022, 15:01

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You need to show a Covid pass to enter a restaurant. You shouldn't have to show an ID to vote. Same people.

Do you believe they have Covid passes in the US?

gwsorrells · #**236** 17.01.2022, 15:13

I didn't say it was a great plan.

"At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” – the language of the 12th Amendment – is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe. A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected."

"Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe’s prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the “the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . .” Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well."

The quotes came from the Eastman Memo.

kiwiguy08 · #**237** 17.01.2022, 15:52

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You need to show a Covid pass to enter a restaurant. You shouldn't have to show an ID to vote. Same people. This thread appears to have wondered off topic, so let's bring it right back by reminding ourselves there are still those who believe Jan 6 was a genuine insurrection

That's one scary granny

TonyClifton · #**238** 17.01.2022, 16:01

	Quote:	komsomolez
	Breaking into the Capitol aside as we won't agree there: What in your view was the effort of decertifying the state election results in order to reinstate Trump? This was a planned effort to overthrow the election, and likely coordinated among Trump, Meadows, several senators. In my view this was the bigger problem on Jan 6.

I think a bunch of misfits, Qnuts and hardcore Trumpers gathered in Washington because they really believed Donald Trump had a plan. It turned out the plan (or rather lack of) relied solely on Mike Pence not certifying the result. When Mike Pence didn't oblige, they turned to the primitive methods that have served people through the centuries: violence and destruction.

I don't believe there was any coordination there. Where were the leaders? Where the evidence of the plan? Where was the plan put into action once they gained access to the Capitol building? Why was it so chaotic?

Only bigger problem is that violence and destruction are now common place in modern America when people don't get their way!

Pancakes · #**239** 17.01.2022, 16:09

	Quote:	TonyClifton
	You need to show a Covid pass to enter a restaurant. You shouldn't have to show an ID to vote. Same people. This thread appears to have wondered off topic, so let's bring it right back by reminding ourselves there are still those who believe Jan 6 was a genuine insurrection

So you have chosen a photo of lady holding a flag as your example of what happened that day while simultaneously choosing to ignore all the other photos and footage that show people assaulting police officers, screaming "Hang Mike Pence!," breaking out windows to get inside the Capitol building and forcing their way into Congress chambers during the certification of an election, etc. while screaming "Stop the Steal?"

Do you normally just filter out any relevant information in order to try to validate your personal narrative?

Susie-Q · #**240** 17.01.2022, 16:56

	Quote:	Pancakes
	Do you normally just filter out any relevant information in order to try to validate your personal narrative?

Tony's speciality