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  #101  
Old 08.07.2021, 14:00
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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And I would like to know the same. Why do some of the people who had condemned the BLM riots then try to excuse and justify and try to downplay the riots on the Capitol?
I agree with you there.
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  #102  
Old 08.07.2021, 16:02
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Yes it is mind blowing to think that anyone watching the events of the day would seek to the man’s death from them. The man was going to die of natural causes that day anyway, sure of course….

Party politics versus core principles upon which the state was founded and party politics wins, utterly disappointing.
Jim, there's no discussion to be had with someone who disagrees with a coroner's report just because it contradicts your narrative.
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Sicknik was assaulted -two men have been charged, how can you claim that is not true? The OP did not claim it caused his death as you are implying.
Simply because it's fact: "medical examiners had not found signs of blunt force trauma"

This is the main problem with the MSM, once a lie has been publicised enough it gets a life of its own and they do nothing to correct it. In fact they usually double and triple down.

And frankly, marton, if you have problem calling the BLM violence, looting, arson, and murder out for what it is maybe you should check your ideology. Those 600 events were coordinated and intentionally violent and destructive mass actions, that makes them riots by all purposes and intents. The problem isn't the 8000 more or less peaceful protest, the problem are the violent ones. Your position is akin to someone pretending that speeding doesn't exist because 93% of the drivers drive responsibly and stay within the speed limit.
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My question to you is, if the rolls were reversed and it was “Antifa” or BLM who invaded the capitol, how would your opinion stand now? Would you say the reaction to it was “overblown”?
Pretty much the same happened in 2018 when Democrats and other lefties tried to block Kavanaugh's swearing-in. While it lacked the violence, the intent was to block a core functioning of one of three state powers, the same intent that's supposed to apply to January 6.

I agree that 2018 was pretty much nothing beyond virtue signaling. The same applies to January 6 WRT to the functioning of the state aka insurrection, the lawful functioning of the state was never in danger. The violence is approprately being dealt with.

Time to move on.

ETA:
The exact same mechanism (lieing MSM) applies to Trump's position on Charlottesville, and the blatant lies about him claiming that he supports (neo-)nazis and white supremacists. Once that lie had been accepted it would never go away, and everybody would see it through this lense. See here for instance, about two minutes into the clip, listen till its end. He repeated that at least once, on the next day, but of course the lieing MSM never published that as it went against their narrative and the ideology they push.

Last edited by Urs Max; 08.07.2021 at 17:01.
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  #103  
Old 10.07.2021, 13:24
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

Apparently the cops found a Lego model of the capitol in the homes of one of the suspects .

The sale of such toys needs to be banned immediately
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  #104  
Old 10.07.2021, 13:53
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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And frankly, marton, if you have problem calling the BLM violence, looting, arson, and murder out for what it is maybe you should check your ideology. .
So far as I know nobody was murdered by BLM protestors, maybe you could quote examples?
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  #105  
Old 10.07.2021, 19:12
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Apparently the cops found a Lego model of the capitol in the homes of one of the suspects .

The sale of such toys needs to be banned immediately
So unamerican not to use Lincoln Logs.
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  #106  
Old 10.07.2021, 20:25
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

DOJ releases a new video of the peaceful demonstrators.

Amazing that they do not keep these people in prison, many have been released.
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  #107  
Old 10.07.2021, 22:51
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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So far as I know nobody was murdered by BLM protestors, maybe you could quote examples?
That's quite the caveat... you didn't have to look very far.
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  #108  
Old 10.07.2021, 22:54
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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  #109  
Old 10.07.2021, 23:36
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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That's quite the caveat... you didn't have to look very far.
Nobody was ever arrested or found guilty of the murder of Aaron “Jay” Danielson.
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  #110  
Old 11.07.2021, 13:06
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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So far as I know nobody was murdered by BLM protestors, maybe you could quote examples?
marton, someone as politically interested as you can't possibly have missed the murders. So no, one single case will have to do, I give you this one only.

For anything beyond that you'll go something like:
You'll claim that "murdered during a riot" is not the same as "murdered by a rioter.". And will people please prove that the massive increases in violent crimes all over the country since the end of May 2020 wouldn't have occurred without the riots, the calls to defund the police, and the installation of the lawless "autonomous" zones. And besides, will people please prove that the victim wouldn't have died of a natural cause without the crime.

I simply have neither time nor inclination to feed your trolling.
I enjoyed your posts in the scientist thread, on that level and with that intent I'm gladly up for a discussion any time.
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  #111  
Old 11.07.2021, 13:57
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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marton, someone as politically interested as you can't possibly have missed the murders. So no, one single case will have to do, I give you this one only.

For anything beyond that you'll go something like:
You'll claim that "murdered during a riot" is not the same as "murdered by a rioter.". And will people please prove that the massive increases in violent crimes all over the country since the end of May 2020 wouldn't have occurred without the riots, the calls to defund the police, and the installation of the lawless "autonomous" zones. And besides, will people please prove that the victim wouldn't have died of a natural cause without the crime.

I simply have neither time nor inclination to feed your trolling.
I enjoyed your posts in the scientist thread, on that level and with that intent I'm gladly up for a discussion any time.
Thanks for your effort.
However, there is nothing in the article that claims the murderer was a BLM protestor.

A little googling will show;
"The incident occurred on the same night as protests in St. Louis, Missouri over the killing of George Floyd.
However, the protests were several miles away."

If you want to claim that murders that took place in the same town as a BLM protest were done by BLM protestors you are free to do so but with zero credibility.
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  #112  
Old 11.07.2021, 14:44
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Thanks for your effort.
However, there is nothing in the article that claims the murderer was a BLM protestor.
Possible, I didn't give it much effort or time. See the prior post.
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  #113  
Old 11.07.2021, 20:26
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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I think that cartoon is failing to take into consideration the whole picture, including the fact that many people on the left were NOT condoning the violence, looting, etc. of the BLM riots* as well as the fact that the BLM riots were triggered by a black man being suffocated by a cop as he was pleading for his life, while the Capitol riots were triggered by a group of people being told that an election was stolen from them despite a lack of evidence to support that.

*I wonder how many Republicans are or have been willing to condemn the Capitol riots. (That's a genuine question -- because I haven't seen many).

But that cartoon is a fine example of how so many people on the right try to downplay the Capitol riots and, for whatever bizarre reason, try to use protests against the wrongful killing of black people by the police to justify a violent attack on the Capitol building and a (failed) attempt to prevent an election from being certified. If the Capitol riot had occurred before the BLM protests, would the Capitol riot justify the BLM riots?

Last edited by Pancakes; 11.07.2021 at 20:38.
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  #114  
Old 24.07.2021, 14:32
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Jim, there's no discussion to be had with someone who disagrees with a coroner's report just because it contradicts your narrative.

Simply because it's fact: "medical examiners had not found signs of blunt force trauma"

This is the main problem with the MSM, once a lie has been publicised enough it gets a life of its own and they do nothing to correct it. In fact they usually double and triple down.

And frankly, marton, if you have problem calling the BLM violence, looting, arson, and murder out for what it is maybe you should check your ideology. Those 600 events were coordinated and intentionally violent and destructive mass actions, that makes them riots by all purposes and intents. The problem isn't the 8000 more or less peaceful protest, the problem are the violent ones. Your position is akin to someone pretending that speeding doesn't exist because 93% of the drivers drive responsibly and stay within the speed limit.

Pretty much the same happened in 2018 when Democrats and other lefties tried to block Kavanaugh's swearing-in. While it lacked the violence, the intent was to block a core functioning of one of three state powers, the same intent that's supposed to apply to January 6.

I agree that 2018 was pretty much nothing beyond virtue signaling. The same applies to January 6 WRT to the functioning of the state aka insurrection, the lawful functioning of the state was never in danger. The violence is approprately being dealt with.

Time to move on.

ETA:
The exact same mechanism (lieing MSM) applies to Trump's position on Charlottesville, and the blatant lies about him claiming that he supports (neo-)nazis and white supremacists. Once that lie had been accepted it would never go away, and everybody would see it through this lense. See here for instance, about two minutes into the clip, listen till its end. He repeated that at least once, on the next day, but of course the lieing MSM never published that as it went against their narrative and the ideology they push.
Funny you should mention Kavanaugh.

The FBI has now admitted in writing they got 4,500 tips against Kavanaugh that they did not investigate but instead forwarded to the White House; what, if anything the White House did with these is not known.

Of course, these tips may not prove anything, however, it seems likely the Senate will investigate the situation further.
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  #115  
Old 24.07.2021, 17:50
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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I think that cartoon is failing to take into consideration the whole picture, including the fact that many people on the left were NOT condoning the violence, looting, etc. of the BLM riots* as well as the fact that the BLM riots were triggered by a black man being suffocated by a cop as he was pleading for his life, while the Capitol riots were triggered by a group of people being told that an election was stolen from them despite a lack of evidence to support that.

*I wonder how many Republicans are or have been willing to condemn the Capitol riots. (That's a genuine question -- because I haven't seen many).

But that cartoon is a fine example of how so many people on the right try to downplay the Capitol riots and, for whatever bizarre reason, try to use protests against the wrongful killing of black people by the police to justify a violent attack on the Capitol building and a (failed) attempt to prevent an election from being certified. If the Capitol riot had occurred before the BLM protests, would the Capitol riot justify the BLM riots?
And there you have the double standard - the left did not CONDONE the violent riots = good , but the right not CONDEMNING the violence of the 6th = BAD (btw there were plenty who did)
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  #116  
Old 24.07.2021, 20:22
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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And there you have the double standard - the left did not CONDONE the violent riots = good , but the right not CONDEMNING the violence of the 6th = BAD (btw there were plenty who did)
I'm sure there are plenty of people on the right who did condemn the Capitol riots (I would hope so at least), but I have yet to have a conversation with one of them. I have not come across anyone here who is or was a Trump supporter and openly admits that the Capitol rioters were wrong.

What I have seen are quite a few people (here and elsewhere) trying to use the BLM protests as a means to justify the Capitol riots, which goes back to my point: If the Capitol riot had occurred before the BLM protests, would the Capitol riot justify the BLM riots?

Do two wrongs make a right?
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  #117  
Old 24.07.2021, 21:25
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Do two wrongs make a right?
We have been over this before .

Two wrongs do not make a right .

But it is fair to expect two equivalent wrongs to be receive similar levels of condemnation and similar levels of prosecution and punishment .

I don’t know what’s so difficult about this concept or how often you need to have it repeated to you .

Nobody on this thread has defended the capitol riots . Even if you continuously claim the opposite . Please let that sink in . On the other hand plenty have defended the BLM riots even going as far as to deny there were any deaths . Etc etc
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  #118  
Old 25.07.2021, 07:52
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

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Funny you should mention Kavanaugh.

The FBI has now admitted in writing they got 4,500 tips against Kavanaugh that they did not investigate but instead forwarded to the White House; what, if anything the White House did with these is not known.

Of course, these tips may not prove anything, however, it seems likely the Senate will investigate the situation further.
And?
Kindly prove that the FBI did indeed have orders to investigate those tips, and that there is something illicit, unlawful, or even illegal to admit, as your phrasing implies. Do note that the Kavanaugh proceedings were not of criminal nature, they were undertaken by order, and under supervision, of either the white house or congress.

US politics are inherently partisan, as should be obvious for anybody who pays more than passing attention. That's nothing new, and it applies equally to both parties.
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I'm sure there are plenty of people on the right who did condemn the Capitol riots (I would hope so at least), but I have yet to have a conversation with one of them. I have not come across anyone here who is or was a Trump supporter and openly admits that the Capitol rioters were wrong.

What I have seen are quite a few people (here and elsewhere) trying to use the BLM protests as a means to justify the Capitol riots, which goes back to my point: If the Capitol riot had occurred before the BLM protests, would the Capitol riot justify the BLM riots?

Do two wrongs make a right?
You do realise, hopefully, that there's a difference between a riot and a protest. The former is violent whereas the latter is peaceful, in both cases pretty much by definition. Thus condemnation is inherent with calling an event a riot, just like it's inherent with calling a killing murder. This may be news to you but words do have meaning.

In light of that remark it's very telling to see you brush aside the numerous BLM riots while you keep emphasising the single capitol riot. Which comes back full circle to parnell's post you replied to, as well as to your only seemingly rhetorical ending question because there again you try to place blame on "them" only. Otherwise you'd have called the BLM riots what they really are, instead of protests.
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  #119  
Old 25.07.2021, 12:03
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

I read this comparison and I have to agree with it. We can disagree, I hope.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-tr...dc4e9418019eb5

Copied text:


Black activists are coming out strongly against a growing narrative among conservatives that equates the deadly siege on the U.S. Capitol with last summer’s Black Lives Matter protests of racial injustice.

Republican lawmakers defending President Donald Trump made the comparison again Wednesday while building their case against impeachment and accused Democrats of being hypocrites with selective outrage. Their comments mark the latest effort by Trump and the GOP to misrepresent the Black Lives Matter movement as an extremist, violent faction tied to anarchists.

“You can moan and groan, but he was far more explicit about his calls for peace than some of the BLM and left-wing rioters were this summer when we saw violence sweep across this nation,” Republican Rep. Matt Gaetz of Florida said in defending Trump before the House voted 232-197 to impeach the president for inciting an insurrection.


But the two events were fundamentally different. One was an intentional, direct attack on a hallowed democratic institution, with the goal of overturning a fair and free election. The other was a coast-to-coast protest movement demanding an end to systemic racism that occasionally, but not frequently, turned violent.

“The GOP has become the party of false equivalences,” said James Jones, assistant professor of African American studies and sociology at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey.

Many BLM protesters were responding to the death of George Floyd, a handcuffed Black man who was seen on video gasping for breath as a Minneapolis police officer pressed his knee into Floyd’s neck. Police repelled the demonstrators using rubber bullets, tear gas and military assets like helicopters.

The mob at the Capitol was fueled by baseless conspiracies propagated by Trump that the election was stolen from him through massive fraud. The rioters acted on the president’s direct urging to “fight like hell.” They attacked police with pipes and chemicals and planted bombs. They were met largely with restraint by law enforcement.

The unrest that followed Floyd’s death included vandalism, arson and looting, but the vast majority of demonstrations were peaceful. Some of the worst violence was in Portland, where thousands of protesters turned out nightly for weeks. Some hurled fireworks, rocks, ball bearings and bottles at federal agents, and a member of a right-wing extremist group was gunned down by an antifa supporter.

But prominent BLM activists repeatedly distanced themselves from provocateurs and brawlers. Much of the violence came from provoked and unprovoked confrontations with police, during city-imposed curfews and after peaceful demonstrators had gone home. An analysis of more than 7,750 demonstrations in 2,400 locations across the country found that 93% happened with no violence, according to the US Crisis Monitor, a joint effort by Princeton University and the Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project.


The mob at the Capitol smashed its way into the heart of the federal government, seeking to interrupt constitutionally mandated proceedings to affirm President-elect Joe Biden’s victory. Lawmakers fled into hiding, and five people were killed, including a Capitol police officer who was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher.

The “overwhelmingly nonviolent” demonstrations cannot be compared to the violence at the Capitol, “where white supremacists, mobilized by falsehoods peddled by President Trump and his GOP allies” laid siege to the Capitol “resulting in its desecration,” Jones said.

Trump has made no effort to apologize for remarks that egged on the insurrection. Instead he said Tuesday: “And if you look at what other people have said, politicians at a high level, about the riots during the summer, the horrible riots in Portland and Seattle and various other places, that was a real problem — what they said.”

Freshman Republican Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia said Democrats should be removed for inciting violence by supporting the protests that followed Floyd’s death in May.

Trump “has held over 600 rallies in the last four years. None of them included assaulting police, destroying businesses or burning down cities,” Greene said.

In fact, occasional violence has happened at Trump rallies, and the president has all but invited crowds to attack critics and journalists. At several events, Trump supporters and protesters have come to blows, including as recently as November, when clashes between people protesting the election results and counter-demonstrators ended with at least one stabbing and 20 arrests.

Freshman Democratic Rep. Sara Jacobs of California said she was disgusted that Republican lawmakers used the comparison to avoid condemning a clear attempt “to stop the processes of democracy.”

“It’s telling that so many Republicans aren’t even attempting to defend the President — because his actions are indefensible,” she said in a statement to The Associated Press after voting to impeach Trump.

The president in a tweet called the Capitol rioters “great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long.” Over the summer, he called the Black Lives Matters protesters “thugs” and “terrorists.”

In 2020, law enforcement agencies made more than 14,000 protest-related arrests, often detaining people who engaged in civil disobedience, as well as acts of violence.

Trump has portrayed people arrested in the protests as dangerous, left-wing radicals. A review by The Associated Press found many were young suburban adults with no previous run-ins with the law or ties to antifa. Short for “anti-fascists,” antifa is not a single organization but rather an umbrella term for far-left-leaning militant groups that confront or resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists at demonstrations.

An investigation into the response of the Capitol police is underway. One officer was seen taking a selfie with a insurrectionist, and several rioters were escorted from the premises without being handcuffed.

Equating the pro-Trump rioters to the Black Lives Matter movement could lead to even heavier law enforcement surveillance and actions against BLM, said Scott Roberts of Color of Change, the nation’s largest digital racial justice advocacy group.

“There is a real danger of this false equivocation leading to ramifications, whether intended or unintended,” he said.

___

Associated Press Writer Aaron Morrison in New York contributed to this report.
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Old 25.07.2021, 12:40
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Re: January 6 US Capitol Insurrection

Alas, nobody outside the US cares.

I sure don't.

Tom
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