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  #181  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:45
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I see claims of serious intent yet the exact same member got threatened a few times by you, merely for having a different, civil opinion.
That member was banned before because of his lack of respect. You empower it. Shame on you.
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  #182  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:45
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I disagree vehemently. It is no longer tolerant to any view except for a righteous/conservative one. Take a look at the posts on this thread and the amount of thanks. Other views are being pushed out through false accusations, misinformation and twisting of words.

Congratulations. You've got what you wanted...
Your views are tolerated, in this thread, in the mod shake up & plenty of others. You have been asked to tone it down by me on the forum & by PM by another moderator.

If your views were not tolerated you would have been banned.
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  #183  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:46
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Your views are tolerated, in this thread, in the mod shake up & plenty of others. You have been asked to tone it down by me on the forum & by PM by another moderator.

If your views were not tolerated you would have been banned.
Then ban me because I will not stop calling people out for spreading misinformation and false accusations.

Last edited by olygirl; 03.07.2021 at 13:48. Reason: Edited to add why FMF should ban me.
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  #184  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:50
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Then ban me because I will not stop calling people out for spreading misinformation and false accusations.
I have no intention of banning you, I like free speech. No intention of muzzling anybody just because they have a different view to myself. It's called tolerance

It would also be bad form for me to actively moderate a thread I am participating in.
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  #185  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:54
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I have no intention of banning you, I like free speech. No intention of muzzling anybody just because they have a different view to myself. It's called tolerance
You may have to ban me because I will continue to call out posters like V__ who continue to post false accusations and misinformation. I consider those posts rude and harrassing, which goes against the rules of the forum.
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  #186  
Old 03.07.2021, 13:57
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Then ban me
I don't think this is the right time or place for a dogfight.

I appreciate that many of the people who shared your opinion have dropped out of this thread and that being one against many is not a pleasant situation to be in. So you have my sympathy there. Really.

And I would urge you not to so anything stupid out of spite right now.

Sometimes a fair fight's a fair fight and, OK, some positions are more difficult to defend than others. But it's still kudos and respect to those who try.

Let's try to see the positive in this. I would wish that we can all still see eye to eye in the future. It's been a good discussion and I think we've all learnt something from it. Definitely I have. And I hope we'll have many good discussions in the future.
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  #187  
Old 03.07.2021, 14:14
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I have no intention of banning you, I like free speech. No intention of muzzling anybody just because they have a different view to myself. It's called tolerance

It would also be bad form for me to actively moderate a thread I am participating in.
This.

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I don't think this is the right time or place for a dogfight.

I appreciate that many of the people who shared your opinion have dropped out of this thread and that being one against many is not a pleasant situation to be in. So you have my sympathy there. Really.

And I would urge you not to so anything stupid out of spite right now.

Sometimes a fair fight's a fair fight and, OK, some positions are more difficult to defend than others. But it's still kudos and respect to those who try.

Let's try to see the positive in this. I would wish that we can all still see eye to eye in the future. It's been a good discussion and I think we've all learnt something from it. Definitely I have. And I hope we'll have many good discussions in the future.
This.

And see my thanks as any other thanks here. They are not meant to aggravate anyone.
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  #188  
Old 03.07.2021, 14:23
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The article says at the same time that the girl knew the boys, volunteerly hang out with them... and then suddenly claims that she was "drugged" by them. It surely seems that she wanted the drugs... neighbours say in the article "there was always girls hanging out with them". Same with the sexual assault. We dont actually know that it was an assault, do we?
Indeed no, the fact that she was raped and killed doesn't really mean it was an assault, doesn't it? I mean maybe she asked for it, didn't she?

I still can not believe there are people defending this post right here.
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  #189  
Old 03.07.2021, 15:04
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I have just read bits of this thread for the first time, and it feels like some of the language is contributing to the disconnect. Simply referencing the law (like logo123 did) would've helped, where the question is posed if something is assault, or not, mindful the victim is a child (it's disappointing to see the suggestion that it might not have been assault, nonetheless, but I, sadly, see often, when I volunteer, people are only to willing to entertain the idea that male on female violence may be a result of the woman having done something that led to what happened)



Aged 16, the word boy is still appropriate, as this person is still a child

Aged 18,22 or 23, these are adults, they are not boys


Aged 13, the word girl is still appropriate, as this person is still a child


The questions to be investigated are then, what possible crimes did a 16 year old child commit against a 13 year old child, and what possible crimes did 3 adult males commit against a 13 year old child


Lastly, there is a deeply offensive narrative mentioned in a post, that the mother provided a picture, and, yetmore sinister, a picture she chose because it reflected the victim at a much younger age. This is a mother who's daughter has been brutally sexually abused and murdered. The picture is predictably old, as it will likely have come from a distant contact of the family. For obvious reasons, anyone very close to the situation is typically hard-to-reach, and unwilling to be at the bidding of journalists and their deadlines.
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  #190  
Old 03.07.2021, 15:24
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I had to go as well back to Treverous comment and I think how you cant read his comment and point out to that wording "sexual assault but we do not know that.." for the simple reason, because it seems how he was making only some juxtaposition.

He would not stand behind such a stern position since the rest he said in his comments goes towards something reasonable and right . He even evoked the fact how this "group of immigrants" is used by the article author, and how it's just as ridiculous as the usual mongering done by the same media in the direction of another group (be it the blacks, the turks, the yugos)

Also, when he mentioned "the photo" he did say that for the same reason, pointing out how the article is just full of c**p (how come they chose to use a photo of the child half her age,is it really just by accident) ..

So maybe everyone is making a huge thing out of nothing and I think he did not even insist on clarifying because he doesnt even know where to begin or to end since it went into such a crazy direction . I might be wrong of course
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  #191  
Old 03.07.2021, 15:30
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Re: Refugees not being deported

The quotation, where the mum was blamed for the pic by the poster:


"Ok, then let me spell it out for you: the girl was 13. At that age is she not allowed to drink, smoke or do drugs. The mother, supplying the newspaper with some photo of what I guess is around 8 years old, tells the paper "yeah, she was very independent, if I had known who she hangs out with would I have done something". Maybe its me, but its your job as a parent to know where your kid is when she is 13. Certainly not 30km away in the flat of a known drug dealer."


You should be able to see this on the thread, too
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  #192  
Old 03.07.2021, 15:52
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Cliinimus , in his comment he was describing his perception of the whole story... and he did show his revulsion in the direction of the mother . Which is legit .

While we can all agree how whoever is responsible for that murder should be rotting for good, no parole .. The real issue here is the mother . I'm profoundly disgusted how she's portrayed as a crying victim ... but the whole tragedy lies in there.

That mum had no idea where the girl goes to and this has been going on for who knows how long (since that girl was 10,11?) and whether that girl wanders the streets or goes to parties , she's exposed to all kinds of danger and accidents.
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  #193  
Old 03.07.2021, 15:58
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I think the poster can speak for themself, and that their post can speak for itself.


There's no "real issue". There are likely many issues, as with any situation in life, none of which absolve 1 boy and several men of abusive and violent conduct towards a child, and the ultimate murder of the child.


Women and girls aren't to blame for predatory, lethal and volent conduct from males against us. Such predators are a danger in the supermarket, on the street, in our homes, in hospitals, in homeless shelters, in bars and restaurants...
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  #194  
Old 03.07.2021, 16:17
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Re: Refugees not being deported

You can talk about that if you see things that way .. As a matter of fact for me it's a same thing if the victim was a boy or a girl. And nowadays we know so much more about heinous crimes, we know how some evil people are abusing children in general.

About this particular crime we dont know anything and that's were it becomes so manipulative, the mom victim, the photo 6y old, no preliminary cause of death .... but , "they're immigrants, deportation.. immigrants..afhgans" ..
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  #195  
Old 03.07.2021, 16:49
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Re: Refugees not being deported

We're going off a newspaper article, designed for clicks. There's an inevitable brevity, the quality of journalism can be debated...


I don't believe we know much about why people commit heinous crimes. The research I have done doesn't lead me to conclude we're making inroads on that. I think the study of mental health is extremely complex, and there have been many mistakes along the way (I was reading a book recently about how easily schizophrenia can be misdiagnosed, and I'm aware of a few studies that challenged whether different doctors could diagnose a patient as mentally well or unwell consistently, and they didn't fare well).


I would hazard a good guess that most male on female violent crime is unreported, and, knowing the inadequacies of the legal system, as it pertains to taking care of women, I can well understand why, not to mention it's sometimes enough to carry to just live with a trauma.



My take on what people would like to discuss is more nuanced than what you've posted in the last bit, because it feels like you typed that a little bit out of frustration. Whichever opinion any of us has, we can fairly represent other opinions. As a woman living in a patriarchy, I'm encouraged to see a will from some males to define some male behaviour towards women as unacceptable, and to analyse where the dangerous males may be developing those predatory ideas from, I am discouraged to see a lack of will to reflect on how much of the danger we face is also on our doorsteps, right in front of us, from men from supposedly progressive backgrounds (it's far from halcyon days in more progressive places and groups, as it pertains to male on female violence).
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  #196  
Old 03.07.2021, 16:59
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Actually not necessarily binary. Let me explain. But happy to be challenged.

From a moral point of view, I am outraged but I recognise personal values are just that so maybe others are fine with such young people engaging in sexual activity.
logo123, I think I understand you and in my opinion you are making some conclusions a bit too fast.

For ex. you say how morally for you that early age sexual activity is outrageous .. but then again, your moral values are not necessarily the best or same as someone else's , so how do we know if yours are better than mine?

When it comes to sexuality, it's so particular I don't think anyone can define things correctly because there are so many conditions. If two 13y olds are doing something.. they're happy with it , no one knows, therefore , what me or someone else thinks (whether it's moral or not) it really is so insignificant.

If a 13y old boy does some activity with a 17y old girl, are we going to judge and intervene and say whether it's moral or not ? for them it's moral so this talk end here .

When we can judge is when in some cultures we see how they're marrying 13y olds .. or they're marrying a 14y old with someone 30y old ..

Now that's something disturbing and I start to go mad, I have moral and all kind of judgements, anger and I'm ready to go to fight.

When it comes to scandals like Rochdale, I think this is where things should be seen a bit further .. than the usual explanation "oh, people didn't want to report , Law Silence" hmmm that's too easy . That's also so improbable if we look at the Greater Manchester. What's more likely is the fact how in that case as well there were big headlines in bold "deportation, bad immigrants members of the gang" talking about sex trafficking but it ended always there . What usually happens is some clients from respectable professions were involved in the whole business and since , no investigation ever went to its full potential whenver there were some "big names of local notable people" .

I've seen some documentaries on the affairs like the one in belgium Dutroux, Outreau in France, Zandvoort in Nl and each time, even though it looked how it's just some horrible local criminals as the process went on it turned out there were some 'big names' involved.

What's a bit interesting is how you say:

"I believe that we are all products of our respective cultures.
You can always transcend that by becoming aware of the conscious and unconscious behavioural mores that you have imbibed from childhood.
Denying the cultural difference is being silly and potentially very dangerous.
Defining that and being open about it is not being racist. It is being honest."


So if that's the case..and then someone , just virtually says to you > "but you seem to be from papua new guinea , culturally they're attached to that" how come then you find that offensive, impolite and bad because you say "you're assuming my origins/culture/background" ?
Then dont be, revendicate it and give more information so the other side can learn something . ?

Don't take it as insult, what Trevorus said because it was just a silly provocation .. In the last couple of days I've been told how I cant speak the local language so I'm totally lost, I'm drunk so I should stop drinking and typing comments, when I type some claim to suffer because of my typing/punctuation skills, I've got a tiktok level of communication, insulting to women..
I see it as - all good .
This is how a forum should be , laughters&missiles etc etc
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  #197  
Old 03.07.2021, 17:28
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I disagree vehemently. It is no longer tolerant to any view except for a righteous/conservative one. Take a look at the posts on this thread and the amount of thanks. Other views are being pushed out through false accusations, misinformation and twisting of words.

Congratulations. You've got what you wanted...
Where have you been called sexist, racist, misandrist, or any other of those all-too-common slurs that some (used to) hurl at anybody with a nonwoke nonfeminist opinion? Where have people taking a left position been "diagnosed" with some mental disorder to invalidate their posts and silence them? Where have you been criticising nickatbasel for calling everybody he disagrees with braindead?

This has happened here for years to people taking a nonwoke nonfeminist position. olygirl, While I agree pretty much everything what you said WRT to the case at hand, you're blind on one eye when it comes to the forum and its onesidedness. And frankly, that "righteous" thing applies to the intolerant and exclusive left at least as much as to everybody else.
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Lastly, there is a deeply offensive narrative mentioned in a post, that the mother provided a picture, and, yetmore sinister, a picture she chose because it reflected the victim at a much younger age. This is a mother who's daughter has been brutally sexually abused and murdered. The picture is predictably old, as it will likely have come from a distant contact of the family. For obvious reasons, anyone very close to the situation is typically hard-to-reach, and unwilling to be at the bidding of journalists and their deadlines.
It's always good to see that people base their opinion on facts, rather than pull some assumptions out of their hat.

The fact is that she gave an interview to newspaper "Heute" a few days ago that was published July 1 5AM.

Last edited by Urs Max; 03.07.2021 at 17:42.
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  #198  
Old 03.07.2021, 17:43
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Nothing to suggest that's true, mindful of how low brow the publication is. In clickbait journalism, quotations can be invented, can be hearsay, can be said to someone pretending to be a sympathetic stranger on the street and never intended for publication... It's also a common tactic to try to provoke a traumatised person into saying something headline-worthy (as it generates clicks).
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Old 03.07.2021, 18:04
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Re: Refugees not being deported

So you can't be bothered to check (the timestamp in your post strongly suggests that) yet you're conviced you're right. Despite what the newspaper says.

Hey everybodey, welcome to CliiniMuus' world where whatever you imagine is fact!
Or as the German version of Pippi Longstockings used to sing
"I make the world as I please".

(Ich mach mir die Welt, wie sie mir gefällt)
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Old 03.07.2021, 18:59
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I think the poster can speak for themself
Hi! How can I help you?
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Lastly, there is a deeply offensive narrative mentioned in a post, that the mother provided a picture, and, yetmore sinister, a picture she chose because it reflected the victim at a much younger age. This is a mother who's daughter has been brutally sexually abused and murdered. The picture is predictably old, as it will likely have come from a distant contact of the family. For obvious reasons, anyone very close to the situation is typically hard-to-reach, and unwilling to be at the bidding of journalists and their deadlines.
The problem with your theory is that the mum both answered the questions of the reporter and gave them the photo according to the article.


Look, I keep this simple: All I did was pointed out that the article is missing at least half the facts necessary to come to a sensible conclusion. It filled the gaps with suggestive expressions that play along the lines of racist stereotypes. And thats frankly more than simple click bait: its the political agenda and bias of very specific publications. Namely Blick in CH, Bild in Germany and Kronen Zeitung in Austria. Thats not just my opinion, but literally commonly agreed fact. The students rioting in the 60s already fought against that...

Everyone else keeps on pushing their agenda by throwing in unrelated cases to proof their point... so I decided to do the same ;-) A year ago a friend of mine share an article on facebook. Here it is: https://www.krone.at/2157337

The article lines out how an Austrian policeman helped a girl who was getting harassed by refugees. One of the refugees was so disrespectful, he slapped his police badge out of his hand! Unfortunately did the courts decide to punish the cop and his girlfriend for helping. End of story.
I smelled a rat... Austria isnt exactly a communist stronghold... so I had a look into it: The court case was a very different story: The girl made a clear statement that she was not harassed at all but was having a conversation with some friends who happened to be refugees in beer tent of a local party. Suddenly a very muscular and rather drunk guy brushed in and attacked the guys. Several bystanders had to help out to get him on the floor but in the process did he beat one of the refugees so badly that he was rushed to hospital wnconscious. Multiple witnesses and the girl convinced the judge, even other cops supported the case by telling that their colleague was beating up the refugee. Here is the same case from a more credible source: https://www.bvz.at/eisenstadt/nicht-...walt-207567973

The Kronen Zeitung article was published AFTER the court case. When all information was available and the case was clear cut: refugee was the victim, drunk cop the bad guy. Not a single word of that in their reporting, but highlighting that "the refugee in question has since gone underground".

Thats the state of tabloid news in Europe at the moment. So yes, I am more than critical about the story discussed here and will highlight the obvious gaps instead of jumping on the anger porn bandwagon.

I personally dont think this has much to do with the political left of right winged opinion... an opinion is based on facts. I have no problem to accept different opinions about the same set of facts. But I have a huge problem with getting an American situation with "alternative facts". Some of the news outlets actively try to "do a Fox News" and simply cut out facts from their reporting at all and replace it with 100% opinion. Because that sells papers. Its in my eyes a rather dangerous development.
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D visa in switzerland, U.S. Permanent resident, where would I be deported to?? Dorna Permits/visas/government 18 29.12.2009 14:39
I'm being deported; how do I notify the immigration police that I've left? joshuakaufman Permits/visas/government 9 18.02.2007 00:50


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