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-   -   Refugees not being deported (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/304834-refugees-not-being-deported.html)

logo123 03.07.2021 19:25

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
logo123, I think I understand you and in my opinion you are making some conclusions a bit too fast.

Could be. This is an emotional topic for most on this forum and I have seen people blame the mother very quickly for the rape and murder of her daughter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
For ex. you say how morally for you that early age sexual activity is outrageous .. but then again, your moral values are not necessarily the best or same as someone else's , so how do we know if yours are better than mine?

Never said my values were better or worse. Just different. You do you, I do me. Does not make me right, does not make you wrong. Vice Versa. Moral Values are very personal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
When it comes to sexuality, it's so particular I don't think anyone can define things correctly because there are so many conditions. If two 13y olds are doing something.. they're happy with it , no one knows, therefore , what me or someone else thinks (whether it's moral or not) it really is so insignificant

I did not mention about sexual activity. I simply quoted the law applicable in Austria. You are expected to conform to the law and that is not contingent on your agreement or acceptance. You can change the law through legislature or judiciary in a democracy but pending that, you follow it. Age of consent in Austria is 14. So having sex with a 13 year old kid is statutory rape. You don't have to like it but that is the law of the land.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
If a 13y old boy does some activity with a 17y old girl, are we going to judge and intervene and say whether it's moral or not ? for them it's moral so this talk end here . :)

Not judging. Just stating the law. By the way, there are other aggravations as well in terms of physical assuault, drug usage, ganging up (how many men were involved?).....Having studied the principle of Consent fairly closely, I can assure you it is not as simple as she 'wanted it' because she said Yes or She did not say No....there is a reason diminished judgement on account of intoxication invalidates consent. Happy to talk in more detail if it helps. Always worth looking at the Bill Cosby and Weinstein trials and what they said (even though BC got away on a technicality).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
When we can judge is when in some cultures we see how they're marrying 13y olds .. or they're marrying a 14y old with someone 30y old ..
Now that's something disturbing and I start to go mad, I have moral and all kind of judgements, anger and I'm ready to go to fight.
When it comes to scandals like Rochdale, I think this is where things should be seen a bit further .. than the usual explanation "oh, people didn't want to report , Law Silence" hmmm that's too easy . That's also so improbable if we look at the Greater Manchester. What's more likely is the fact how in that case as well there were big headlines in bold "deportation, bad immigrants members of the gang" talking about sex trafficking but it ended always there . What usually happens is some clients from respectable professions were involved in the whole business and since , no investigation ever went to its full potential whenver there were some "big names of local notable people"

I am not saying that. This is what the social workers and police said. In legal terms, things are not so woozy as you are highlighting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
I've seen some documentaries on the affairs like the one in belgium Dutroux, Outreau in France, Zandvoort in Nl and each time, even though it looked how it's just some horrible local criminals as the process went on it turned out there were some 'big names' involved.

What's a bit interesting is how you say:

"I believe that we are all products of our respective cultures.
You can always transcend that by becoming aware of the conscious and unconscious behavioural mores that you have imbibed from childhood.
Denying the cultural difference is being silly and potentially very dangerous.
Defining that and being open about it is not being racist. It is being honest."


So if that's the case..and then someone , just virtually says to you > "but you seem to be from papua new guinea , culturally they're attached to that" how come then you find that offensive, impolite and bad because you say "you're assuming my origins/culture/background" ?
Then dont be, revendicate it and give more information so the other side can learn something . ?

Please read his comment again about me being an American Warrior and Upper Class 3rd World Prat who somehow resents others 'making it'....there is cultural nuances and there is downright rudeness and crassness. His comment was crass, ill-informed and pathetic

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
Don't take it as insult, what Trevorus said because it was just a silly provocation .. In the last couple of days I've been told how I cant speak the local language so I'm totally lost, I'm drunk so I should stop drinking and typing comments, when I type some claim to suffer because of my typing/punctuation skills, I've got a tiktok level of communication, insulting to women..

Disagree. He could have challenged my thinking. He could have presented counter arguments. He made personal comments on my nationality and assumed a whole lot of crap. So kindly don't defend his prejudicial and rude comments or expect me to understand, ignore or be fine by them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324234)
I see it as - all good .
This is how a forum should be , laughters&missiles :smoke: etc etc

Yes. With RESPECT. And without Personal Innuendoes.
Notice all through our dialogue I did not speculate which country you come from, your social standing, your perceived affiliations or your bias. That is the basic courtesy we extend to each other. Not like some other boorish characters on this thread.

Peace Out.

mikedragos 03.07.2021 20:53

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickatbasel (Post 3323870)
So what is wrong with being an economic migrant?

Nothing. They are also often referred as 'expats'.

greenmount 04.07.2021 07:55

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323960)
As both my profile and introduction thread say am I German. Given your answer are you probably not European. You have the religious warrior feel of an American, but clearly neither the language skills nor the capability to use an online forum. So I guess you are an upper class child from a third world country who feels entitled to live here and hates it when other folks make it through asylum or else.

There are a lot of upper class children from first world countries on this forum that have exactly the same feelings - hate it when others they deemed inferior make it, and I'm not even talking about asylum seekers.

What was it that you were trying to say here? I find your statements quite racist. Couldn't you make a point without making these assumptions not only about your opponent but presumably about whole other nationalities too? This theory was developed by DB sometime ago and frankly I thought it was silly (and provocative, but that was DB for you, the forum was a bit more peaceful after he left) because if this is the case, then all "upper classes" are like that.

greenmount 04.07.2021 08:13

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by logo123 (Post 3324266)
Disagree. He could have challenged my thinking. He could have presented counter arguments. He made personal comments on my nationality and assumed a whole lot of crap. So kindly don't defend his prejudicial and rude comments or expect me to understand, ignore or be fine by them.


Yes. With RESPECT. And without Personal Innuendoes.
Notice all through our dialogue I did not speculate which country you come from, your social standing, your perceived affiliations or your bias. That is the basic courtesy we extend to each other. Not like some other boorish characters on this thread.

Peace Out.

Look, I don't know your opinions on this thread because frankly I can't be bothered to read it, but these words, here, here you are SPOT ON.

Edit: I hope you won't take some comments on this forum too personally, trust me it's not worth it....;)

FairDinkum 04.07.2021 09:56

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
there's some hypocrisy coming out of greenmount comment or it just looks like that ??:confused: :p

greenmount 04.07.2021 10:09

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FairDinkum (Post 3324341)
there's some hypocrisy coming out of greenmount comment or it just looks like that ??:confused: :p

What exactly is your point here and what do you aim to achieve with this comment? I refrain from commenting views based on people's nationality. Please desist from trolling. And don't act all surprised if people push back.

Who were you in your previous incarnations? Kriss_Kross? A dupe of Talk to you later? You seem to know an awful lot of people you don't know.

marton 04.07.2021 10:29

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3323644)
Austria is discussing a more hardline approach to deporting refugees who commit crimes after several Afghan refugees raped and killed a 13 year old girl in Vienna.

At least one of them had multiple convictions but could not be deported due to his age. I hope they finally start to take a more realistic approach to this problem.

Link to the (German) Blick:
https://www.blick.ch/ausland/nach-to...d16644304.html

Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.

FairDinkum 04.07.2021 10:33

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Girls yell my name boys fear me ;):cool:

Actually if you look at what I wrote you could see how I said "coming out of greenmoutn comment (hyprocrisy) not you . Not yourself as a person.

ps. I really am not reincarnation of another member of this forum and I dont know the members you've mentioned

vushka 04.07.2021 11:54

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 3324362)
Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.

This is a valid point and further shows the need to establish offshore processing.

olygirl 04.07.2021 12:13

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 3324362)
Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.

Actually, I've been told by an Afghan refugee that the Taliban quite often kill returned refugees, which is why refugees don't want to go back.

Switzerland is returning rejected asylum seekers:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzer...istan/46722754

Plight of returned refugees: https://theconversation.com/afghanis...efugees-121788
(article is dated 2019)

parnell 04.07.2021 12:24

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 3324399)
Actually, I've been told by an Afghan refugee that the Taliban quite often kill returned refugees, which is why refugees don't want to go back.

Solid proof right there....

Real refugees don't care about getting to Switzerland , Germany or Sweden where benefits are highest - they just want to be safe. Economic migrants who were in the recent past refugees should be returned to the first safe country of entry - as per the EU law - that Merkel stomped all over and created this mess in. Such economic migrants will no surprise tell any number of falsehoods to those who wish to listen to them without investigating further - hence the situation where 84% were found to be lying in pretending to be children in Sweden.

olygirl 04.07.2021 12:42

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by parnell (Post 3324404)
Solid proof right there....

Real refugees don't care about getting to Switzerland , Germany or Sweden where benefits are highest - they just want to be safe. Economic migrants who were in the recent past refugees should be returned to the first safe country of entry - as per the EU law - that Merkel stomped all over and created this mess in. Such economic migrants will no surprise tell any number of falsehoods to those who wish to listen to them without investigating further - hence the situation where 84% were found to be lying in pretending to be children in Sweden.

I don't think the refugees who I've spoken to are lying. It's what they believe. Afghanistan is made up of many ethical tribes. According to Wikipedia:

Afghanistan is a multiethnic and mostly tribal society. The population of the country consists of numerous ethnolinguistic groups: Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimaq, Turkmen, Baloch, Pashai, Nuristani, Gujjar, Arab, Brahui, Qizilbash, Pamiri, Kyrgyz, Sadat and others. The Afghan National Anthem and the Afghan Constitution each mention fourteen of them, though the lists are not exactly the same.[1]

It's a complicated situation and because I personally have worked with several refugees, I've developed an interest in their backgrounds and futures.

I'm quite concerned with the future of that country since US and UK troops are pulling out and predict we'll be seeing an even greater flood of refugees in the next few years.

However, bringing this thread back to refugees not being deported despite their criminal activity, it's still not clear which punishment is better: deportation or jail time.

logo123 04.07.2021 12:46

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3324318)
Look, I don't know your opinions on this thread because frankly I can't be bothered to read it, but these words, here, here you are SPOT ON.

Edit: I hope you won't take some comments on this forum too personally, trust me it's not worth it....;)

Agree. Free speech is essential to the idea of democracy. And perspectives must be countered with perspectives. Making personal attacks is not just pathetic, it also demonstrates that you have no counter argument.

And finally these personal attacks are the trade-mark of the 'woke-cancel culture' nonsense. If I cant challenge your assertion, I will simply label you and call you silly things and try and shut you out.

p.s. you don't need to read my opinions. No worries. I don't really write such long posts but the asinine comment by one of the posters really pissed me off and the subsequent lame justification on aggravated my anger.

Btw, Happy American Independence Day to all my fellow American Warrior Spirits.... LoL

logo123 04.07.2021 12:51

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 3324414)
I don't think the refugees who I've spoken to are lying. It's what they believe. Afghanistan is made up of many ethical tribes. According to Wikipedia:

Afghanistan is a multiethnic and mostly tribal society. The population of the country consists of numerous ethnolinguistic groups: Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimaq, Turkmen, Baloch, Pashai, Nuristani, Gujjar, Arab, Brahui, Qizilbash, Pamiri, Kyrgyz, Sadat and others. The Afghan National Anthem and the Afghan Constitution each mention fourteen of them, though the lists are not exactly the same.[1]

It's a complicated situation and because I personally have worked with several refugees, I've developed an interest in their backgrounds and futures.

I'm quite concerned with the future of that country since US and UK troops are pulling out and predict we'll be seeing an even greater flood of refugees in the next few years.

However, bringing this thread back to refugees not being deported despite their criminal activity, it's still not clear which punishment is better: deportation or jail time.

Good point and well stated.

I hold the principle that the expectations from someone who wants to come into your country must be higher.

I am not a fan of birth-lottery but if you choose to come into a country, you are obligated to learn the traditions and customs of that country. Otherwise don't come. Btw, this applies to ALL people and countries. You cant go into a country and expect them to adapt to your views. Assimilation is welcome and beautiful when it happens as part of peaceful co-existence.

If you break the law, there must be consequences. And one of them is taking away your privilege of being part of the country. Because the burden of compliance is higher.

And yes, the refugee crisis will get worse. And one of the main drivers is climate change. And unfortunately EU will bear the brunt of it. And these issues will only get aggravated.....This is not my opinion. Zurich Insurance bought out a study which validates that the refugee crisis is being driven by Climate Change. There is a very strong co-relation between armed conflict and climate change which in turn leads to refugee migration.

schoggiweggli 04.07.2021 12:52

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by marton (Post 3324362)
Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

I thought it was standard practice to jail an offender then deport them on release anyway.

logo123 04.07.2021 12:59

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by parnell (Post 3324404)
Solid proof right there....

Real refugees don't care about getting to Switzerland , Germany or Sweden where benefits are highest - they just want to be safe. Economic migrants who were in the recent past refugees should be returned to the first safe country of entry - as per the EU law - that Merkel stomped all over and created this mess in. Such economic migrants will no surprise tell any number of falsehoods to those who wish to listen to them without investigating further - hence the situation where 84% were found to be lying in pretending to be children in Sweden.

You will enjoy this video series by this YouTuber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h89tiY6KMlg

I was amazed that he actually posted these videos.
He thinks he is doing a service to others.
I am both in awe of his courage and a bit mortified at why he would call attention to himself this like so openly.

p.s. he Is not the only one..... :-)

Talk to you later 04.07.2021 13:23

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmount (Post 3324350)
Who were you in your previous incarnations? Kriss_Kross? A dupe of Talk to you later? You seem to know an awful lot of people you don't know.

Holy Batman Greenmount, I have no idea what your issue is with me! Why the hell do you bring me into something that has absolutely nothing to do with me :confused: I don't think I have even posted on this thread!

I HAVE NO DUPE ACCOUNT ON EF!!!!!! Also, I don't need a duplicate account if I wanted to trash you or expose you for the hypocrite princess that you are! You do a good job of that yourself :rolleyes:

parnell 04.07.2021 13:25

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by logo123 (Post 3324429)
You will enjoy this video series by this YouTuber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h89tiY6KMlg

I was amazed that he actually posted these videos.
He thinks he is doing a service to others.
I am both in awe of his courage and a bit mortified at why he would call attention to himself this like so openly.

p.s. he Is not the only one..... :-)

But he is doing a service - he is helping others violate the laws of the EU - and youtube is helping him. The other reason why we have a refugee "crisis" is because internet enabled mobile phones became incredibly cheap - so asylum "seekers" learned which lies to tell in which manner extremely quickly and published them to their friends.
The solution is simple - mass deportation to an offshore location and put the burden of proof on the applicant. Certainly coming to Switzerland should be an immediate red flag.

logo123 04.07.2021 13:38

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
You know, in a funny way, the most Refugee Friendly approach is zero tolerance to henious crimes committed by Refugees.
That sounds counter intuitive but here is why it makes sense.

If you ignore/belittle/defend crimes by refugees, you not only send a message to others who want to come to your country, you also strengthen the far right which lives off this narrative.

The Far-Left and the Far-Right are in a symbiotic relationship. They both live off each others BS. The middle is what holds the ground in most countries.

The more understanding and flexibility you show towards heinous crimes committed by them, the higher the risk that these crimes will be repeated and that the far-right will use them to push their xenophobic agenda.

So not deporting murders and rapists because their own lives will be at risk is disingenuous.

If they were so concerned about their own safety, maybe they should have extended the same courtesy to their victim......

Resisting harsh punishments and deportations of murders and rapists is not only a massive dis-service to the community that welcome them in the 1st place (and assumed that they would abide by the rules in the first place) but also a huge dis-service to the many peaceful and law-abiding refugees and migrants who don't do this. And you feed the far-right nonsense who live off these double standards.

So, being very firm, fair and clear incase of henoius crimes is the best thing you can do for refugees, the community and the people who aspire to come here.

FairDinkum 04.07.2021 13:42

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
What's funny about the refugees is how around 70% and more are men :D:D:D

just doesnt make sense...does it


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