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  #301  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:03
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Baiting and twisting words doesn't help create a good discussion. It's like you want to find a small weakness and use that as your base to attack instead of seeing the whole picture for an engaging discussion.
I don't think talking nonsense about paedophilia is a small weakness, especially not from a poster who has previously tried to justify a bunch of adult men drugging and raping a 13 year old.

And anyway. Good arguments don't have small weaknesses.
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  #302  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:26
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I don't think talking nonsense about paedophilia is a small weakness, especially not from a poster who has previously tried to justify a bunch of adult men drugging and raping a 13 year old.

And anyway. Good arguments don't have small weaknesses.
Just to be clear: the bunch of adult men was a 16 year old and an 18 year old suspect. Both can be trialed as youth according to the law.

Anyways. THere was a court case in Switzerland today. I am sure you read about it as it is smack in your line of interest... wonder why nobody posted it here?

Long story short: two years ago did a 13 year old girl and a 16 year old go out in Basel and had between each other a few beers and a bottle (!) of vodka. Not so surprising were they rather drunk. Then they met an 18 year old... wait for it... Afghan refugee boy. Who walked them to the train station. While the younger one had to vomit in the station bathroom for some time was he first making out with the older one and the "forced her to perform oral sex on him". She made police statements that she refused, but was too drunk to fight back and was then raped. Here is the pre-trial article on 20min: https://www.20min.ch/story/er-zwang-...h-599310151578

Long trial day later: case dismissed, guy fully acquitted, "can now start to do his Lehre starting in autumn". We are talking about an 18 year old who was brandmarked as a rapist for two years... only to find out in trial that the police statements of the girl were highly conflicting and the questioning from the start suggestive. Video footage showed the older one being way less drunk then claimed and she admitted that "yeah, he was cute, so we kissed and yeah, I just sucked him off... I cant say he force me... now am I much stronger minded and would say no...".
https://www.20min.ch/story/dann-habe...t-523562831439

Must have been fun for a state attorney who demanded 29 months jail and deportation afterwards to listen to the girl say that she wasnt raped but "well, he pulled down his pants at some point so I gave him a blow job"...

The problem: the "pre trial article" full of now proven wrong accusations will stay online forever - no link to the result or anything.
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  #303  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:49
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Re: Refugees not being deported

It is an old problem. Whenever a horrible crime or death takes place, the ones asking for a sober analysis of evidence are accused by the lynch mob of being accomplices of the perpetrators.

If I ever had to show up in front of a court of law, I much rather have Treverus sit there than Amogles.
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  #304  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:53
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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It is an old problem. Whenever a horrible crime or death takes place, the ones asking for a sober analysis of evidence are accused by the lynch mob of being accomplices of the perpetrators.

If I ever had to show up in front of a court of law, I much rather have Treverus sit there than Amogles.
The article Treverus referred to didn't actually mention a lynch mob.

But it's always good to imagine one for the dramatic effect.
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  #305  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:58
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The article Treverus referred to didn't actually mention a lynch mob.

But it's always good to imagine one for the dramatic effect.
The death penalty was called here on page one. And you haven't come across here as a defender of "innocent until proven guilty" either.
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  #306  
Old 06.07.2021, 21:58
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The article Treverus referred to didn't actually mention a lynch mob.

But it's always good to imagine one for the dramatic effect.
You didnt get this for real?
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  #307  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:01
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I read that article carefully and thought of this thread.

1) the 13 and 16 year old girls were inebriated to the point that the younger one was throwing up. They were in no condition to make wise choices and it wasn't clear how much they were flirting.

2) The 18 year old man saw the state the girls were in and took advantage of it. It's probable that the 16 year old girl wasn't forced to give a blow job but didn't know how to say no either. All this happened on a train platform in a glass booth. A passenger stumbled on to the scene which caused the young man to run away.

3) Because of the state the girls and the lack of a precise memory at that time, the young man got off scot free.

- Does it matter that the girls were stinking drunk?
- Does it matter that the man was an Afghan refugee?
- Was there a crime committed?
- Why was a 13 year old getting drunk in the first place?
- Is there a difference between rape and a "forced" blow job?

I don't have the answers but it's a sad situation that will affect both the girls and the young man forever.
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  #308  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:04
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Let's also not forget that the article is from Blick. Who probably copied it from Kronenzeitung. Which I believe was somehow Treverus' point.
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  #309  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:04
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Let's also not forget that the article is from Blick. Who probably copied it from Kronenzeitung. Which I believe was somehow Treverus' point.
I read it in 20 Minuten.
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  #310  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:05
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I read it in 20 Minuten.
Ok, that is of course a whole different world of journalism.
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  #311  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:06
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The death penalty was called here on page one. And you haven't come across here as a defender of "innocent until proven guilty" either.
I never advocated the death penalty on this thread.

And I didn't advocate a guilty verdict either.

What I did speak up against was giving the suspects a preferential treatment or the benefit of the doubt on account of their ethnicity.

But asking for logic is apparently the same as being a lynch mob these days.
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  #312  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:09
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Ok, that is of course a whole different world of journalism.
Just stating the facts.
https://www.20min.ch/story/dann-habe...t-523562831439
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Old 06.07.2021, 22:14
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Re: Refugees not being deported

1) the court decided that the girl was not stinking drunk. Not just based on hearsay from drunk teenagers, but apparently pretty clear video footage showing her walking clearly and helping her drunk friend.

2) the girl made from the beginning statements that she wasnt raped but was apparently "suggestively questioned".

3) Does it matter if the guy was an Afghan refugee? It should not. Do you think there would have even been a court case today if his name was Reto Müller? I am not sure tbh.

4) My point is that the court showed today that some things the news reported as facts were found to be completely false. I was trying to point out what I was saying here from the beginning: we dont know enough to really discuss any of that.

5) Yes, I think there is something important in the case: I have been repeatedly blamed for victim shaming for pointing out basic factual gaps in the articles. This case shows that there can be more than one victim. An 18 year old being called a rapist for two years while trying to get asylum isnt something that the boy will just shrug off... in Austria are there a couple of young boys being pre-trialled by the press as gang-rapists and murderers...

Just to be clear: the court did not set the boy in Basel free because there was no definitive proof. They dismissed the entire case stating clearly that they do not see any illegal behaviour. Thats a pretty big difference.
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  #314  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:16
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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You didnt get this for real?
A guy who is 18 gets a blow job from a 13 year old.

In my book that's not OK. 18 year olds have been punished for doing less than that with 13 year olds. But OK. The judge knew what he was doing.

The girl accuses him of rape.

The judge looks at the evidence. Says its not rape.

Case dismissed.

That's how judges and courts are supposed to work.

There was no lynch mob. The guy's name was not published. He can walk the streets in perfect safety. It's not going to be a stain on his reputation. It is unpleasant of course, but so is any court summons.

Yet you don't have a problem with the hyperbole of seeing a lynch mob there.
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Old 06.07.2021, 22:19
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I never advocated the death penalty on this thread.

And I didn't advocate a guilty verdict either.

What I did speak up against was giving the suspects a preferential treatment or the benefit of the doubt on account of their ethnicity.

But asking for logic is apparently the same as being a lynch mob these days.
For me, this thread started with the issue of whether the refugees should be thrown in jail or be deported from Austria for:

a) their previous criminal acts
b) for rape and murder

The facts of the case were discussed and various aspects were analyzed. I don't see how deportation is preferential treatment and no one expected leniency due to the refugee status.
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  #316  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:21
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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A guy who is 18 gets a blow job from a 13 year old.

In my book that's not OK. 18 year olds have been punished for doing less than that with 13 year olds. But OK. The judge knew what he was doing.

The girl accuses him of rape.

The judge looks at the evidence. Says its not rape.

Case dismissed.

That's how judges and courts are supposed to work.

There was no lynch mob. The guy's name was not published. He can walk the streets in perfect safety. It's not going to be a stain on his reputation. It is unpleasant of course, but so is any court summons.

Yet you don't have a problem with the hyperbole of seeing a lynch mob there.
According to the article linked by olygirl the blow jobber was 16 not 13. Had she been 13 it's at least statutory rape I would expect.
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Old 06.07.2021, 22:21
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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A guy who is 18 gets a blow job from a 13 year old.
No he didnt. He got a blowjob from a 16 year old. And thats totally legal.
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  #318  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:22
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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A guy who is 18 gets a blow job from a 13 year old.
READ THE ARTICLE!

The girl was 16 and not 13. The 13 year old was busy throwing up due to her alcohol excess.
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  #319  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:24
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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3) Does it matter if the guy was an Afghan refugee? It should not. Do you think there would have even been a court case today if his name was Reto Müller? I am not sure tbh.
I am not sure is not a good enough argument if you are claiming there is an invisible lynch mob. Plenty of stuff in the papers actually about people with Swiss names doing stuff.

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4) My point is that the court showed today that some things the news reported as facts were found to be completely false. I was trying to point out what I was saying here from the beginning: we dont know enough to really discuss any of that.
And how do you know these facts were false?

It said so in the press.

Yes, the press who you are accusing of being one sided.
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  #320  
Old 06.07.2021, 22:25
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Just to be clear: the bunch of adult men was a 16 year old and an 18 year old suspect. Both can be trialed as youth according to the law.
They also arrested a 23 year old and have a warrant out for a 22 year old. You seem to keep forgetting this inconvenient fact.
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