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  #41  
Old 02.07.2021, 12:44
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I'd be very interested to be enlightened: Who is fighting the war in Syria that started the major refugee movement... and what for?
Merkel started the refugee stream by saying y’all welcome . And overnight the shortage of doctors and engineers was solved .

So I guess she thinks she is the winner of a war in which she didn’t take part .

Machiavellian scheming that . Only she forgot that somebody else had to clean up the mess and live with the consequences .
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  #42  
Old 02.07.2021, 12:57
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Could you kindly stop victim blaming and victim shaming?
I would argue that smoking, drinking or even doing drugs DOES NOT justify being sexually assaulted and killed (shocking, I know!)
I have no idea wtf is Anger Porn....all i feel is anger at the loss of a young girl (and the circumstances of her passing) and the enduring grief of her mother.

And for the record, I do think some crimes deserve the capital punishment. Irrespective of whether a 'refugee' committed them or a 'citizen'.
Killing young and vulnerable people in a barbaric way is clearly one of them.
Ok, then let me spell it out for you: the girl was 13. At that age is she not allowed to drink, smoke or do drugs. The mother, supplying the newspaper with some photo of what I guess is around 8 years old, tells the paper "yeah, she was very independent, if I had known who she hangs out with would I have done something". Maybe its me, but its your job as a parent to know where your kid is when she is 13. Certainly not 30km away in the flat of a known drug dealer.

The article says at the same time that the girl knew the boys, volunteerly hang out with them... and then suddenly claims that she was "drugged" by them. It surely seems that she wanted the drugs... neighbours say in the article "there was always girls hanging out with them". Same with the sexual assault. We dont actually know that it was an assault, do we?

And no, taking drugs and having sex does not mean she deserves to get killed... but we are not talking about some weed here. Taking ecstacy, especially mixed with other drugs, can lead to a psychosis, fears and rage attacks. A 13 year old cannot be held in any way responsible for this and it could be a terribly tragic incident. But jumping to the conclusion that the guys drugged her, raped her and then killed her is equally stupid. They seem to be having a good time with enough drugs and girls... why kill one?

The article is just extremely biased in the way its written without any facts to back it up. And yes, I strongly believe that it is written the way it is because of the cultural background of the young men. If they were locals would the article describe a terrible drug-related incident... warning people about drugs. Now it warns readers to not trust Afghan refugees. And no, I dont agree to that sentiment.

Maybe I am wrong and the guys deserve to rot in hell... but then is it still not Blick or Kronenzeitung to make that call.
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  #43  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:09
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Ok, then let me spell it out for you: the girl was 13. At that age is she not allowed to drink, smoke or do drugs. The mother, supplying the newspaper with some photo of what I guess is around 8 years old, tells the paper "yeah, she was very independent, if I had known who she hangs out with would I have done something". Maybe its me, but its your job as a parent to know where your kid is when she is 13. Certainly not 30km away in the flat of a known drug dealer.

The article says at the same time that the girl knew the boys, volunteerly hang out with them... and then suddenly claims that she was "drugged" by them. It surely seems that she wanted the drugs... neighbours say in the article "there was always girls hanging out with them". Same with the sexual assault. We dont actually know that it was an assault, do we?

And no, taking drugs and having sex does not mean she deserves to get killed... but we are not talking about some weed here. Taking ecstacy, especially mixed with other drugs, can lead to a psychosis, fears and rage attacks. A 13 year old cannot be held in any way responsible for this and it could be a terribly tragic incident. But jumping to the conclusion that the guys drugged her, raped her and then killed her is equally stupid. They seem to be having a good time with enough drugs and girls... why kill one?

The article is just extremely biased in the way its written without any facts to back it up. And yes, I strongly believe that it is written the way it is because of the cultural background of the young men. If they were locals would the article describe a terrible drug-related incident... warning people about drugs. Now it warns readers to not trust Afghan refugees. And no, I dont agree to that sentiment.

Maybe I am wrong and the guys deserve to rot in hell... but then is it still not Blick or Kronenzeitung to make that call.
Why are older guys (reportedly 16,18,22,23) giving a 13 year old girl hard drugs, even if she wants them?

And to question whether it was or wasn't sexual assault! Even if she consented, to take advantage of a drugged up 13 year old girl is sickening.
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  #44  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:13
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Treverus makes some good points:

The Afghan refugees were 16 and 18.
The daughter was 13
The mother knew her daughter was very "independent" but had no idea what was doing.
There were under the influence of ectasy.


Other facts:
Sending refugees back to Afghanistan may result in their death due to their flight to Europe.
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  #45  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:14
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Whereabouts off the coast of Switzerland should this offshore refugee centre be built?
Büsingen.

Tom
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  #46  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:14
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Why are older guys (reportedly 16,18,22,23) giving a 13 year old girl hard drugs, even if she wants them?

And to question whether it was or wasn't sexual assault! Even if she consented, to take advantage of a drugged up 13 year old girl is sickening.
Those older men are being investigated. Their connection to the girl's death has not been proven.
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  #47  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:17
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The article is just extremely biased in the way its written without any facts to back it up. And yes, I strongly believe that it is written the way it is because of the cultural background of the young men. If they were locals would the article describe a terrible drug-related incident... warning people about drugs. Now it warns readers to not trust Afghan refugees. And no, I dont agree to that sentiment.
I don’t think the article says that . Not at all .

It seems to me rather that you think no evil may be said of certain groups . Because groupthink .

I wonder if you would be similarly groping for excuses if Israeli soldiers had murdered a 13 year old Palestinian girl .

Why are some people automatically to be condemned and others to be defended ?
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  #48  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:23
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Why are older guys (reportedly 16,18,22,23) giving a 13 year old girl hard drugs, even if she wants them?
Because the 18 year old is a convicted dealer? Its sort of a job. And no, age-verification with government issued ID is not part of that job.
When I was that age were we all drinking way too much years before we were of legal age to do so. And we all knew who in the class was doing other drugs. Not exactly a new idea... if anything do kids these days do a lot less drugs (and a lot more tiktok...)
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:23
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Büsingen.

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Old 02.07.2021, 13:25
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Other facts:
Sending refugees back to Afghanistan may result in their death due to their flight to Europe.
Especially if they rape and murder children .

Much safer to do that in Austria .
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:26
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Amogles

I deal with Afghan refugees on a daily basis. Just today, an Afghan retold his plight and escape from Afghanistan and the Taliban to a group of teenagers. Before pointing fingers at refugees, it's important to inform yourself on why they are here and meet a few in person.

Switzerland has a large amount of Afghan refugees who are now going through the process of integration and learning a new profession. All of the ones I have met are humble and grateful for the opportunity. Their biggest obstacle is learning the local language, which should be at least a B2 level for them to succeed in their education.

I'm all for punishing criminals harshly but I refuse to paint all Afghan refugees as dangerous until proven otherwise.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:27
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I don’t think the article says that . Not at all .

It seems to me rather that you think no evil may be said of certain groups . Because groupthink .

I wonder if you would be similarly groping for excuses if Israeli soldiers had murdered a 13 year old Palestinian girl .

Why are some people automatically to be condemned and others to be defended ?
Nope. I just honestly hate prejudice in the yellow press. And this article has the full program of it... I am not in any way defending anyone automatically, but there are user here shouting for the death penalty when there is more than a few "gaps" in the reporting. So the propaganda is working and yes, I take the opposite point. We had Nazi salutes on page one of this thread, so its more necessary than ever.

And to say the least is MC once again not exactly Mod-material on this thread.

When it comes to "Why are some people automatically to be condemned and others to be defended ?" do I not think I am the guilty one here...
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  #53  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:27
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Especially if they rape and murder children .

Much safer to do that in Austria .
That was your deduction and highly sarcastic. It also doesn't lend to an engaging discussion.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:30
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I read the article (as someone mentioned we should read the article and have some sympathy for the rapists and murderers).

The people suspected of the crime have a history of prior offenses.

We also make a mistake of ignoring/under-estimating cultural mores and practises.

The Rochdale Grooming Gangs scandal is also very instructive on what happens when a society gets too caught up in political agendas and leaves its most vulnerable at risk.

Afghanistan has an old practise of 'bacchabazi'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
The Taliban movement was in part a reaction to this.
That said, Taliban morphed into a separate monster which no one should defend.

In all of the discussion re. refugees, we often overlook the cultural contexts that we ALL come from. Refugees are not all bad. They are not all good. The same way citizens of any country are neither all bad or good. However ignoring the cultural context or established norms of the culture is crazy.

At some point hopefully, we can have a more mature and adult conversation about inclusion being a two way street and the enhanced burden of integration on the person/persons who CHOOSE to come into a country.

I argue that there is a clear and present obligation on all of us to adopt the ways of the country we choose to stay in. And if we don't want to do that, then we should leave.

Tolerance is a two way street with a higher burden on the person who want to come. And that is irrespective which ever country it is.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:31
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Amogles

I deal with Afghan refugees on a daily basis. Just today, an Afghan retold his plight and escape from Afghanistan and the Taliban to a group of teenagers. Before pointing fingers at refugees, it's important to inform yourself on why they are here and meet a few in person.

Switzerland has a large amount of Afghan refugees who are now going through the process of integration and learning a new profession. All of the ones I have met are humble and grateful for the opportunity. Their biggest obstacle is learning the local language, which should be at least a B2 level for them to succeed in their education.

I'm all for punishing criminals harshly but I refuse to paint all Afghan refugees as dangerous until proven otherwise.

Never did I speak of "all Afghan refugees".

If you work with them on a daily basis you should be more aware than anybody how a dew bad eggs can spoil things for the others and how looking for excuses is only justifying them.

It should be in the interest of the Afghan refugees themselves to condemn these individuals in the harshest possible way.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:38
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Never did I speak of "all Afghan refugees".

If you work with them on a daily basis you should be more aware than anybody how a dew bad eggs can spoil things for the others and how looking for excuses is only justifying them.

It should be in the interest of the Afghan refugees themselves to condemn these individuals in the harshest possible way.
Just like Americans should condemn its second amendment due to all the shooting.
Just like Muslims should condemn its fanatical terrorists.

Don't get me wrong, what those refugees did was horrific and they should be punished accordingly. I just don't know how you expect other Afghan refugees to condemn them while living in another country.

Edit: I apologize for saying "all Afghan refugees" but your (and other posters') posts come across as very angry towards refugees.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:43
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Re: Refugees not being deported

What a thread. So Austria did not deport a refugee who was denied the right to stay in Austra and this guy then rapes and kills a child - and this is somehow Germany's fault?

Some here really need to seek treatment of their unhinged hatred for Germany and the EU.
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  #58  
Old 02.07.2021, 13:45
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Deportation of foreign sentenced criminals after jail time seems to be a normal thing around the world. However, this part is interesting:

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Mother: "Why not deported a long time ago?"

Investigators arrested two Afghans (18 and 16) on Monday. The older one is considered the main suspect and has long been known to the police for robbery and drug trafficking: he was reported eleven times and convicted three times!
I'd say the failure was in being out of jail after 3 convictions. It's tempting to say deportation would have prevented this, but being safely kept in a cell helps society and the young guy too. But, deportation comes after jail, not before.

In some really rough environments, the guy who spent some years in jail is the one alive at 30 YO. The others died before touching jail. From this perspective, jail time is positive thing.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:46
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I read the article (as someone mentioned we should read the article and have some sympathy for the rapists and murderers).

The people suspected of the crime have a history of prior offenses.

We also make a mistake of ignoring/under-estimating cultural mores and practises.

The Rochdale Grooming Gangs scandal is also very instructive on what happens when a society gets too caught up in political agendas and leaves its most vulnerable at risk.

Afghanistan has an old practise of 'bacchabazi'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
The Taliban movement was in part a reaction to this.
That said, Taliban morphed into a separate monster which no one should defend.

In all of the discussion re. refugees, we often overlook the cultural contexts that we ALL come from. Refugees are not all bad. They are not all good. The same way citizens of any country are neither all bad or good. However ignoring the cultural context or established norms of the culture is crazy.

At some point hopefully, we can have a more mature and adult conversation about inclusion being a two way street and the enhanced burden of integration on the person/persons who CHOOSE to come into a country.

I argue that there is a clear and present obligation on all of us to adopt the ways of the country we choose to stay in. And if we don't want to do that, then we should leave.

Tolerance is a two way street with a higher burden on the person who want to come. And that is irrespective which ever country it is.
One the one hand do you want an "adult" discussion, on the other do you jump from one random fact to another just to proof your point that it was "all cultural".

1. The Rochdale scandal was very different: we are talking about a gang of married adult men who groomed kids. That was both clearly cultural and organized crime.

2. Bacha bazi is indeed a cultural thing. One where OLD men have sex with young BOYS. Not a 16 year old boy with a 13 year old girl. Wanna know what thats called? "pretty normal".

3. Everyone fully agrees that crime deserves to get punished and clearly, in the case of the 18 year old repeat-offender that didnt happen. That an 18 year old becomes a criminal is not automatically a cultural or integration issue... because native Austrians also take drugs. Famously including Austrian politicians...

4. Fully agree that integration is important, not a one way street and what not else... but you are jumping to the conclusion that this is cultural, an integration issue and what not else without any proof. You know what one of the biggest hurdle of integration is? Prejudice. If a young person from another culture makes repeated negative experiences in his new home he will have trouble integrating.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:47
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Just like Americans should condemn its second amendment due to all the shooting.
Just like Muslims should condemn its fanatical terrorists.

Don't get me wrong, what those refugees did was horrific and they should be punished accordingly. I just don't know how you expect other Afghan refugees to condemn them while living in another country.
You have been thanking Treverus for providing excuses for their behaviour, and then groaning me for saying the opposite. So it seems clear where your sympathies lie.

To me it seems that Treverus would have preferred if this event had not got out into the open at all. A bit like in Germany where such events are systematically swept under the rug because some people in power are afraid it would give refugees a bad name so its better not to talk about it just in case. Like the recent story of the Somali who murdered three woman.

Talking about it also gives refugees themselves room to air their opinions and show whose side they are on.
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