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-   -   Refugees not being deported (https://www.englishforum.ch/international-affairs-politics/304834-refugees-not-being-deported.html)

vushka 02.07.2021 08:29

Refugees not being deported
 
Austria is discussing a more hardline approach to deporting refugees who commit crimes after several Afghan refugees raped and killed a 13 year old girl in Vienna.

At least one of them had multiple convictions but could not be deported due to his age. I hope they finally start to take a more realistic approach to this problem.

Link to the (German) Blick:
https://www.blick.ch/ausland/nach-to...d16644304.html

Chuff 02.07.2021 08:40

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.

It's a shame that we can't find seem to find an equal balance of human rights and freedoms vs being able to harshly punish those who commit the most heinous crimes in society; there is often seemingly a conflict of interest between the two.

olygirl 02.07.2021 09:17

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
In Afghanistan, the men would either be killed or celebrated, depending on who was governing the area they lived in. It's a sick world.

Kittster 02.07.2021 09:43

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3323646)
Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.

It's a shame that we can't find seem to find an equal balance of human rights and freedoms vs being able to harshly punish those who commit the most heinous crimes in society; there is often seemingly a conflict of interest between the two.

Well, my aunt used to work in HM Prison Durham when it was still a high security prison (it housed people like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady) and there was apparently a special hierarchy among prisoners, with anyone who harmed children being at the very, very bottom. Guards would not be particularly motivated to ensure the safety of those individuals... Various prison reforms (most of which very necessary and important if there is meant to be an actual rehabilitation of prisoners) mean that this type of "informal additional punishment" is not quite so prevalent but it still happens as far as I know. So prison at the very least.

However, I would prefer there to be a strict rule of certain crimes resulting in immediate deportation if it is proven beyond doubt that the person committed them. And since the EU can decide on laws that apply everywhere, they should also be hit with a lifelong ban on re-entering the area.

I don't care how traumatised you are, there is never, EVER an excuse to physically harm another human being who has done nothing to you. Obviously, if there was provocation or the other person attacked you and you are defending yourself, it's a different issue. Otherwise I could see skinheads starting to provoke refugees with the goal of getting them deported for defending themselves. But what these despicable maggots did simply cannot stand and my personal view is that human rights should only protect those who respect the human rights of others. You cannot expect to benefit from a moral code when you yourself spit on that code.

olygirl 02.07.2021 09:49

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
The problem with deportation is that those sick bast*ds are still free and can continue their heinous crimes until they finally land in jail or are killed.

vushka 02.07.2021 10:03

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.

Tom1234 02.07.2021 10:16

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by olygirl (Post 3323663)
In Afghanistan, the men would either be killed or celebrated, depending on who was governing the area they lived in. It's a sick world.

The men would rarely be killed but the rape victims are often murdered in an honour killing for adultery, or forced to marry the rapist.

Shocking.

Chuff 02.07.2021 10:26

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3323692)
I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.

I didn't know they had done that and I think it's a good idea to separate them from the general population until they are full processed and either approved or denied.

Treverus 02.07.2021 10:38

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3323708)
I didn't know they had done that and I think it's a good idea to separate them from the general population until they are full processed and either approved or denied.

Why? Refugees are not exactly all rapist or criminals or in any way dangerous. Why should they be locked up? Its people who flee from terrible trauma and if anything do the camps from Australia to Greece only add more trauma.

The key is not to lock them up but to finally make the processes work and ideally work a lot faster. But that would shift the blame from the refugees to the government... In many of the existing criminal and terrorist cases were all the warning signs there, but the governments failed to react on time. Shifting the blame to the refugees as a group instead of singling out the dangerous and criminal ones is the exact same sort of discussion we have on any other minority from "the Yugos" to "all black men are drug dealers". Different day, same bullshit.

parnell 02.07.2021 10:46

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vushka (Post 3323692)
I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.

An idea which had been proposed years ago on this forum (and others no doubt) to howls of derision from the leftists.
When you remove or reduce the economic incentive to game the system you remove the main part of the problem.

parnell 02.07.2021 10:47

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323713)
Why? Refugees are not exactly all rapist or criminals or in any way dangerous.

Genuine refugees yes. Please provide your 100% accurate method of determining "genuine refugees" from economic migrants.

MusicChick 02.07.2021 10:50

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by parnell (Post 3323717)
An idea which had been proposed years ago on this forum (and others no doubt) to howls of derision from the leftists.
When you remove or reduce the economic incentive to game the system you remove the main part of the problem.

So what do you do if you have quotas to accept certain number unconditionally and at the same time you provide the economic incentive, too? And why are V4s being shamed for their questioning?

Chuff 02.07.2021 10:53

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323713)
Why? Refugees are not exactly all rapist or criminals or in any way dangerous. Why should they be locked up? Its people who flee from terrible trauma and if anything do the camps from Australia to Greece only add more trauma.

The key is not to lock them up but to finally make the processes work and ideally work a lot faster. But that would shift the blame from the refugees to the government... In many of the existing criminal and terrorist cases were all the warning signs there, but the governments failed to react on time. Shifting the blame to the refugees as a group instead of singling out the dangerous and criminal ones is the exact same sort of discussion we have on any other minority from "the Yugos" to "all black men are drug dealers". Different day, same bullshit.

The point is that a refugee should be considered as unknown potentially dangerous and not mixed with the general population of a country until they have been properly processed and approved.

I don't agree that refugees are all traumatised and should automatically be given every chance upon arrival. You say Denmark are "locking them up" for dramatic effect, but in reality they are being segregated in a secure facility for processing while it is determined what their background and intentions are. They can then either be approved and released into society, or deported.

The last years have shown beyond any doubt that not all refugees are innocent or have good intentions and if even a small proportion of them will potentially commit serious crimes then precautions should be put in place to do some screening and checks while protecting the general population.

How do you in your words: "single out the criminals" when male refugees often lie about their age and throw away their ID/passports? :confused:

Phil_MCR 02.07.2021 11:05

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323713)
Why? Refugees are not exactly all rapist or criminals or in any way dangerous. Why should they be locked up? Its people who flee from terrible trauma and if anything do the camps from Australia to Greece only add more trauma.

The key is not to lock them up but to finally make the processes work and ideally work a lot faster. But that would shift the blame from the refugees to the government... In many of the existing criminal and terrorist cases were all the warning signs there, but the governments failed to react on time. Shifting the blame to the refugees as a group instead of singling out the dangerous and criminal ones is the exact same sort of discussion we have on any other minority from "the Yugos" to "all black men are drug dealers". Different day, same bullshit.

processing faster might not eliminate the issue: after all, one can be a genuine refugee and also a rapist.

i think a more fundamental issue is that if you let people in who have very different values and beliefs (including how they believe women should be treated) then you'll always have problems.

amogles 02.07.2021 11:13

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323713)

The key is not to lock them up but to finally make the processes work and ideally work a lot faster. But that would shift the blame from the ..

The problem here has nothing to do with the asylum processing system

It has to do with the fact that candidates whose applications have been rejected avoid deportation and continue to exploit legal loopholes to stay .

In fact the majority of rejected cases manage to stay somehow or other .

And every time somebody is deported you get all the usual crowd shouting murder .

amogles 02.07.2021 11:18

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3323721)
And why are V4s being shamed for their questioning?

Because they are a bunch of untermenschen who live in caves and eat mud . And worse than that , they dared propose that just maybe Germany has it wrong . That is of course against the founding principles of the EU and they need to be punished .

parnell 02.07.2021 11:21

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3323721)
So what do you do if you have quotas to accept certain number unconditionally and at the same time you provide the economic incentive, too? And why are V4s being shamed for their questioning?

Reject quotas as absurd. I would also argue that the economic incentive should be effectively zero - which means that receiving countries provide subsistence and nothing more - the point of the convention is to provide refuge - not a living wage.


Why are V4s being shamed ? Because Merkel and her cronies know they ed up but are using every apparatus of the state to hide that fact. Consider the German football team and their recent match - 3 women were stabbed to death with a further 5 in hospital because of a Somalian "refugee" let in/escorted by their current chancellor - what was their gesture before the match ? A minute's silence for the victims ? No - it was to take the knee - in deference to a racist Marxist movement.


Here's the England football team making a similar political statement in 1935 - to give you some idea as to how insidious such gestures should be viewed: https://webcdn.mmu.ac.uk/news/img/ne...e6dbd4cf8e.jpg

Treverus 02.07.2021 11:23

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 3323728)
processing faster might not eliminate the issue: after all, one can be a genuine refugee and also a rapist.

i think a more fundamental issue is that if you let people in who have very different values and beliefs (including how they believe women should be treated) then you'll always have problems.

I might be the only one who read the actual article but the girl was a friend of the guys, they hang out together and did drugs together. That Blick uses a childhood photo of her instead of a more recent one is in my eyes on purpose... because the anger porn gets stronger if the pixilated photo shows a smaller child.

Claiming that the assault happened because of the cultural background of the refugees instead of the drugs is also a bit of a stretch... Its a tragedy which happened among teenagers. Why the 18 year old refugee had his own flat and could do what he did while having a police track record for drug dealing is the real question. Shifting the blame to "the refugees" is the cheap way out for the Austrian authorities and especially their right winged head of state.

MusicChick 02.07.2021 11:26

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3323732)
Because they are a bunch of untermenschen who live in caves and eat mud .

We do have some sauerkraut with that, and wurst, strudel and schnitzel. So.. Booo.

The refugees we created a free and quality life for, did not respect the quotas and left for countries with higher subsidies. How is that V4's fault? German politics will be on their own, soon.

amogles 02.07.2021 11:26

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3323732)
Because they are a bunch of untermenschen who live in caves and eat mud . And worse than that , they dared propose that just maybe Germany has it wrong . That is of course against the founding principles of the EU and they need to be punished .

Which is so ridiculous if you consider that these founding principles that the Germans like to get on a soapbox over were actually about protecting the failing coal industries of the Saarland , Belgium and Luxemburg .

A goal in which they failed dismally .

LtSoftDrink 02.07.2021 11:32

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3323732)
Because they are a bunch of untermenschen who live in caves and eat mud . And worse than that , they dared propose that just maybe Germany has it wrong . That is of course against the founding principles of the EU and they need to be punished .

That’s a bit harsh. Due to generous tech-transfer from the original EU members, the V4 now possess fire and they frequently feast on tepid mud soup.
That their crime against the founding principles of the EU merits punishment goes w/o saying :D

Treverus 02.07.2021 11:35

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3323731)
The problem here has nothing to do with the asylum processing system

It has to do with the fact that candidates whose applications have been rejected avoid deportation and continue to exploit legal loopholes to stay .

In fact the majority of rejected cases manage to stay somehow or other .

And every time somebody is deported you get all the usual crowd shouting murder .

And its the refugees fault that these loopholes exist or that the governments dont deport consistently? Who is making the laws? Who is executing them? The fun bit is that it is typically the conservative politicians who failed at their job and then blame the minorities. In case of Austria is Kurz in power since 2017, half of that time together with the extreme right and always claiming that his government is all about "law and order". They have been bashing refugees for a decade but clearly fail at following through with the existing laws. No need to stigmatize more... just do your job.

bowlie 02.07.2021 11:35

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Well, one thing we need to do better is to integrate refugees into our society. They need to be taught about gender equality and how our society works. What our expectations are and what obligations Swiss residents have.

At the moment they get none of this.

Many of them cannot be deported because of what may happen to them on their return.

amogles 02.07.2021 11:36

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3323739)

The refugees we created a free and quality life for, did not respect the quotas and left for countries with higher subsidies. How is that V4's fault? German politics will be on their own, soon.

I guess it’s a repeating pattern in German history that they start off with the world being their best friends and they end up fighting it out alone , holed up in a bunker under Berlin . And of course convinced that they are right and everybody else is wrong .

Maybe when your friends start switching sides that should be a warning ?

Axa 02.07.2021 11:41

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323745)
And its the refugees fault that these loopholes exist or that the governments dont deport consistently? Who is making the laws? Who is executing them? The fun bit is that it is typically the conservative politicians who failed at their job and then blame the minorities. In case of Austria is Kurz in power since 2017, half of that time together with the extreme right and always claiming that his government is all about "law and order". They have been bashing refugees for a decade but clearly fail at following through with the existing laws. No need to stigmatize more... just do your job.

As Bowlie said, it would be great to integrate Swiss prison guards in our society. Anyone remembers the story of the prison guard who helped escape a rapist in CH? You only had one job, one damned job!!!
https://www.thelocal.ch/20170524/con...tra-jail-time/

More seriously, sure there are plenty of laws to apply. Just apply them.

Phil_MCR 02.07.2021 11:41

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323736)
I might be the only one who read the actual article but the girl was a friend of the guys, they hang out together and did drugs together. That Blick uses a childhood photo of her instead of a more recent one is in my eyes on purpose... because the anger porn gets stronger if the pixilated photo shows a smaller child.

Claiming that the assault happened because of the cultural background of the refugees instead of the drugs is also a bit of a stretch... Its a tragedy which happened among teenagers. Why the 18 year old refugee had his own flat and could do what he did while having a police track record for drug dealing is the real question. Shifting the blame to "the refugees" is the cheap way out for the Austrian authorities and especially their right winged head of state.

i didn't read the article. i'm thinking even less serious things such as expats arriving in switzerland and the differences between the swiss population and the non-swiss. little things like trash/cleanliness.

now move to bigger differences on religion, or even basic things such as how people look and dress...

vushka 02.07.2021 11:42

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323736)
I might be the only one who read the actual article but the girl was a friend of the guys, they hang out together and did drugs together. That Blick uses a childhood photo of her instead of a more recent one is in my eyes on purpose... because the anger porn gets stronger if the pixilated photo shows a smaller child.

WTF sort of 18 year old 'friend' is hanging out with a 13 year old girl and giving her drugs? Sound more like child grooming.
Apologism at it's worse :msnsick:

nickatbasel 02.07.2021 11:47

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Whereabouts off the coast of Switzerland should this offshore refugee centre be built?

amogles 02.07.2021 11:47

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323745)
And its the refugees fault that these loopholes exist or that the governments dont deport consistently? Who is making the laws? Who is executing them? The fun bit is that it is typically the conservative politicians who failed at their job and then blame the minorities. In case of Austria is Kurz in power since 2017, half of that time together with the extreme right and always claiming that his government is all about "law and order". They have been bashing refugees for a decade but clearly fail at following through with the existing laws. No need to stigmatize more... just do your job.

Nevertheless , countries like Hungary don’t have many such loopholes and the likes of Germany won’t stop criticizing them for it rather than studying their model to find ways of adapting it to th or own situation

amogles 02.07.2021 11:48

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickatbasel (Post 3323755)
Whereabouts off the coast of Switzerland should this offshore refugee centre be built?

In evian .

LtSoftDrink 02.07.2021 11:49

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3323746)
Well, one thing we need to do better is to integrate refugees into our society. They need to be taught about gender equality and how our society works. What our expectations are and what obligations Swiss residents have.

At the moment they get none of this.

Many of them cannot be deported because of what may happen to them on their return.

Disagree about “none of this” – I think a large number of refugees have no desire to assimilate very much and in some cases this is simply impossible due to culture/religion.
Regarding deportation, I’d say true. Also not easy to determine/prove the country of origin. Lots of countries refuse to re-admit deportees, full stop.

MusicChick 02.07.2021 11:56

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by parnell (Post 3323733)
Reject quotas as absurd. I would also argue that the economic incentive should be effectively zero - which means that receiving countries provide subsistence and nothing more - the point of the convention is to provide refuge - not a living wage.


Why are V4s being shamed ? Because Merkel and her cronies know they ed up but are using every apparatus of the state to hide that fact.

V4 and Danemark figured out who is fighting the war and what for.

Treverus 02.07.2021 11:57

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LtSoftDrink (Post 3323759)
Disagree about “none of this” – I think a large number of refugees have no desire to assimilate very much and in some cases this is simply impossible due to culture/religion.

British expats are not refugees.

LtSoftDrink 02.07.2021 12:01

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323764)
British expats are not refugees.

Yeah, just another bunch of DP's with no issues :D

LtSoftDrink 02.07.2021 12:02

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickatbasel (Post 3323755)
Whereabouts off the coast of Switzerland should this offshore refugee centre be built?

Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 3323757)
In evian .

Fort Boyard! Though perhaps Guernsey might provide better amenities and is big enough for an interesting walk in the afternoon.

Treverus 02.07.2021 12:17

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 3323763)
V4 and Danemark figured out who is fighting the war and what for.

I'd be very interested to be enlightened: Who is fighting the war in Syria that started the major refugee movement... and what for?

vushka 02.07.2021 12:26

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickatbasel (Post 3323755)
Whereabouts off the coast of Switzerland should this offshore refugee centre be built?

Denmark is reportedly planning one in Rwanda.

logo123 02.07.2021 12:31

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323736)
I might be the only one who read the actual article but the girl was a friend of the guys, they hang out together and did drugs together. That Blick uses a childhood photo of her instead of a more recent one is in my eyes on purpose... because the anger porn gets stronger if the pixilated photo shows a smaller child.

Claiming that the assault happened because of the cultural background of the refugees instead of the drugs is also a bit of a stretch... Its a tragedy which happened among teenagers. Why the 18 year old refugee had his own flat and could do what he did while having a police track record for drug dealing is the real question. Shifting the blame to "the refugees" is the cheap way out for the Austrian authorities and especially their right winged head of state.

Could you kindly stop victim blaming and victim shaming?
I would argue that smoking, drinking or even doing drugs DOES NOT justify being sexually assaulted and killed (shocking, I know!)
I have no idea wtf is Anger Porn....all i feel is anger at the loss of a young girl (and the circumstances of her passing) and the enduring grief of her mother.

And for the record, I do think some crimes deserve the capital punishment. Irrespective of whether a 'refugee' committed them or a 'citizen'.
Killing young and vulnerable people in a barbaric way is clearly one of them.

parnell 02.07.2021 12:36

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 3323769)
I'd be very interested to be enlightened: Who is fighting the war in Syria that started the major refugee movement... and what for?

According to the EU itself 80% who came in 2015 were not from Syria

keyboardandmouse 02.07.2021 12:43

Re: Refugees not being deported
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 3323646)
Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.

This falls into the trap of getting the wrong person though. Maybe these boys didn't do it, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are several cases of people being released from prison for crimes they did not commit, things get a bit more complicated if you have already killed them.


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