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Old 02.07.2021, 08:29
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Refugees not being deported

Austria is discussing a more hardline approach to deporting refugees who commit crimes after several Afghan refugees raped and killed a 13 year old girl in Vienna.

At least one of them had multiple convictions but could not be deported due to his age. I hope they finally start to take a more realistic approach to this problem.

Link to the (German) Blick:
https://www.blick.ch/ausland/nach-to...d16644304.html
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Old 02.07.2021, 08:40
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Re: Refugees not being deported

Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.

It's a shame that we can't find seem to find an equal balance of human rights and freedoms vs being able to harshly punish those who commit the most heinous crimes in society; there is often seemingly a conflict of interest between the two.
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Old 02.07.2021, 09:17
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Re: Refugees not being deported

In Afghanistan, the men would either be killed or celebrated, depending on who was governing the area they lived in. It's a sick world.

Last edited by olygirl; 02.07.2021 at 09:48.
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Old 02.07.2021, 10:16
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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In Afghanistan, the men would either be killed or celebrated, depending on who was governing the area they lived in. It's a sick world.
The men would rarely be killed but the rape victims are often murdered in an honour killing for adultery, or forced to marry the rapist.

Shocking.
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Old 02.07.2021, 09:43
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.

It's a shame that we can't find seem to find an equal balance of human rights and freedoms vs being able to harshly punish those who commit the most heinous crimes in society; there is often seemingly a conflict of interest between the two.
Well, my aunt used to work in HM Prison Durham when it was still a high security prison (it housed people like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady) and there was apparently a special hierarchy among prisoners, with anyone who harmed children being at the very, very bottom. Guards would not be particularly motivated to ensure the safety of those individuals... Various prison reforms (most of which very necessary and important if there is meant to be an actual rehabilitation of prisoners) mean that this type of "informal additional punishment" is not quite so prevalent but it still happens as far as I know. So prison at the very least.

However, I would prefer there to be a strict rule of certain crimes resulting in immediate deportation if it is proven beyond doubt that the person committed them. And since the EU can decide on laws that apply everywhere, they should also be hit with a lifelong ban on re-entering the area.

I don't care how traumatised you are, there is never, EVER an excuse to physically harm another human being who has done nothing to you. Obviously, if there was provocation or the other person attacked you and you are defending yourself, it's a different issue. Otherwise I could see skinheads starting to provoke refugees with the goal of getting them deported for defending themselves. But what these despicable maggots did simply cannot stand and my personal view is that human rights should only protect those who respect the human rights of others. You cannot expect to benefit from a moral code when you yourself spit on that code.
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Old 02.07.2021, 09:49
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Re: Refugees not being deported

The problem with deportation is that those sick bast*ds are still free and can continue their heinous crimes until they finally land in jail or are killed.
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Old 02.07.2021, 10:03
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.
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Old 02.07.2021, 10:26
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.
I didn't know they had done that and I think it's a good idea to separate them from the general population until they are full processed and either approved or denied.
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Old 02.07.2021, 10:46
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I think Denmark is on the right track with offshore asylum centres. That way you don't end up with migrants gaming the system, avoiding deportation and ultimately committing heinous crimes like this.
An idea which had been proposed years ago on this forum (and others no doubt) to howls of derision from the leftists.
When you remove or reduce the economic incentive to game the system you remove the main part of the problem.
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Old 08.07.2021, 00:15
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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The problem with deportation is that those sick bast*ds are still free and can continue their heinous crimes until they finally land in jail or are killed.
Not if they have a accident on the way , like the doore opens and he falls out, argentine are good at it
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Old 02.07.2021, 15:38
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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However, I would prefer there to be a strict rule of certain crimes resulting in immediate deportation if it is proven beyond doubt that the person committed them.
Personally, I would prefer that criminals are only punished for all crimes when it is proven beyond reasonable doubt, whether that punishment is a fine, community service, prison or deportation.

In a civilised society, there cannot be a burden of super proof for certain crimes that you find heinous. You are either guilty of a crime or you or not guilty (with a special nod to the Scottish notion of not proven).
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Old 02.07.2021, 12:43
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Deportation? Raplng and kiIling a child should imo carry a death sentence.
This falls into the trap of getting the wrong person though. Maybe these boys didn't do it, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are several cases of people being released from prison for crimes they did not commit, things get a bit more complicated if you have already killed them.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:30
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Re: Refugees not being deported

I read the article (as someone mentioned we should read the article and have some sympathy for the rapists and murderers).

The people suspected of the crime have a history of prior offenses.

We also make a mistake of ignoring/under-estimating cultural mores and practises.

The Rochdale Grooming Gangs scandal is also very instructive on what happens when a society gets too caught up in political agendas and leaves its most vulnerable at risk.

Afghanistan has an old practise of 'bacchabazi'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
The Taliban movement was in part a reaction to this.
That said, Taliban morphed into a separate monster which no one should defend.

In all of the discussion re. refugees, we often overlook the cultural contexts that we ALL come from. Refugees are not all bad. They are not all good. The same way citizens of any country are neither all bad or good. However ignoring the cultural context or established norms of the culture is crazy.

At some point hopefully, we can have a more mature and adult conversation about inclusion being a two way street and the enhanced burden of integration on the person/persons who CHOOSE to come into a country.

I argue that there is a clear and present obligation on all of us to adopt the ways of the country we choose to stay in. And if we don't want to do that, then we should leave.

Tolerance is a two way street with a higher burden on the person who want to come. And that is irrespective which ever country it is.
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Old 02.07.2021, 13:46
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I read the article (as someone mentioned we should read the article and have some sympathy for the rapists and murderers).

The people suspected of the crime have a history of prior offenses.

We also make a mistake of ignoring/under-estimating cultural mores and practises.

The Rochdale Grooming Gangs scandal is also very instructive on what happens when a society gets too caught up in political agendas and leaves its most vulnerable at risk.

Afghanistan has an old practise of 'bacchabazi'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
The Taliban movement was in part a reaction to this.
That said, Taliban morphed into a separate monster which no one should defend.

In all of the discussion re. refugees, we often overlook the cultural contexts that we ALL come from. Refugees are not all bad. They are not all good. The same way citizens of any country are neither all bad or good. However ignoring the cultural context or established norms of the culture is crazy.

At some point hopefully, we can have a more mature and adult conversation about inclusion being a two way street and the enhanced burden of integration on the person/persons who CHOOSE to come into a country.

I argue that there is a clear and present obligation on all of us to adopt the ways of the country we choose to stay in. And if we don't want to do that, then we should leave.

Tolerance is a two way street with a higher burden on the person who want to come. And that is irrespective which ever country it is.
One the one hand do you want an "adult" discussion, on the other do you jump from one random fact to another just to proof your point that it was "all cultural".

1. The Rochdale scandal was very different: we are talking about a gang of married adult men who groomed kids. That was both clearly cultural and organized crime.

2. Bacha bazi is indeed a cultural thing. One where OLD men have sex with young BOYS. Not a 16 year old boy with a 13 year old girl. Wanna know what thats called? "pretty normal".

3. Everyone fully agrees that crime deserves to get punished and clearly, in the case of the 18 year old repeat-offender that didnt happen. That an 18 year old becomes a criminal is not automatically a cultural or integration issue... because native Austrians also take drugs. Famously including Austrian politicians...

4. Fully agree that integration is important, not a one way street and what not else... but you are jumping to the conclusion that this is cultural, an integration issue and what not else without any proof. You know what one of the biggest hurdle of integration is? Prejudice. If a young person from another culture makes repeated negative experiences in his new home he will have trouble integrating.
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Old 02.07.2021, 14:12
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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One the one hand do you want an "adult" discussion, on the other do you jump from one random fact to another just to proof your point that it was "all cultural".

1. The Rochdale scandal was very different: we are talking about a gang of married adult men who groomed kids. That was both clearly cultural and organized crime.

2. Bacha bazi is indeed a cultural thing. One where OLD men have sex with young BOYS. Not a 16 year old boy with a 13 year old girl. Wanna know what thats called? "pretty normal".

3. Everyone fully agrees that crime deserves to get punished and clearly, in the case of the 18 year old repeat-offender that didnt happen. That an 18 year old becomes a criminal is not automatically a cultural or integration issue... because native Austrians also take drugs. Famously including Austrian politicians...

4. Fully agree that integration is important, not a one way street and what not else... but you are jumping to the conclusion that this is cultural, an integration issue and what not else without any proof. You know what one of the biggest hurdle of integration is? Prejudice. If a young person from another culture makes repeated negative experiences in his new home he will have trouble integrating.
I dont want to respond to some of the things you have said but I will say this.

I don't know in which society having sex with a 13 year old kid is considered 'pretty normal'.....in most countries that is statutory rape....and rightly so...but maybe you think differently
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Old 02.07.2021, 15:45
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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I hope they finally start to take a more realistic approach to this problem.
What problem? Are most crimes in Austria commited by asylum seekers or immigrants? Are most heinous crimes in Austria commited by asylum seekres or immigrants?

These scum will be given a hefty sentence. The fact that they're (wannabe) immigrants is largely irrelevant. Maybe they'll reflect on the what would have happened if they'd done this where they were born. Thankfully, we in the west are more civilised.

On another note, an asylum seeking friend of mine was denied asylum after just over five years. But he's been granted a B-permit on compassionate grounds and the fact that he's very well integrated. I think perhaps that not all immigrants are a problem. Oh - and I'm an immigrant too, being British.
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Old 04.07.2021, 10:29
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Austria is discussing a more hardline approach to deporting refugees who commit crimes after several Afghan refugees raped and killed a 13 year old girl in Vienna.

At least one of them had multiple convictions but could not be deported due to his age. I hope they finally start to take a more realistic approach to this problem.

Link to the (German) Blick:
https://www.blick.ch/ausland/nach-to...d16644304.html
Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.
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Old 04.07.2021, 11:54
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.
This is a valid point and further shows the need to establish offshore processing.
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Old 04.07.2021, 12:13
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Deporting is not a solution, they need to be punished.

None of those countries will take any action against their own citizens accused of such crimes and returned to them. They will be able to run around free and even emigrate to other countries.
Actually, I've been told by an Afghan refugee that the Taliban quite often kill returned refugees, which is why refugees don't want to go back.

Switzerland is returning rejected asylum seekers:
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzer...istan/46722754

Plight of returned refugees: https://theconversation.com/afghanis...efugees-121788
(article is dated 2019)
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Old 04.07.2021, 12:24
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Re: Refugees not being deported

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Actually, I've been told by an Afghan refugee that the Taliban quite often kill returned refugees, which is why refugees don't want to go back.
Solid proof right there....

Real refugees don't care about getting to Switzerland , Germany or Sweden where benefits are highest - they just want to be safe. Economic migrants who were in the recent past refugees should be returned to the first safe country of entry - as per the EU law - that Merkel stomped all over and created this mess in. Such economic migrants will no surprise tell any number of falsehoods to those who wish to listen to them without investigating further - hence the situation where 84% were found to be lying in pretending to be children in Sweden.
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