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  #41  
Old 10.07.2021, 20:30
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Nope. It's not on the screen shot you kindly supplied either, unless you happen to be Spanish.
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  #42  
Old 10.07.2021, 20:42
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Cant see the point to jam this topic with this useless information. If you want we can continue in priv.msgs and I can send you a screenshot where I've underlined everything in red so you see it . is that ok for you?
  #43  
Old 10.07.2021, 21:20
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Cant see the point to jam this topic with this useless information. If you want we can continue in priv.msgs and I can send you a screenshot where I've underlined everything in red so you see it . is that ok for you?
Maybe have a look at your original post.

There is nothing for conspiracionist in English that I can find anywhere. Maybe you meant to write conspirationist?
  #44  
Old 10.07.2021, 21:34
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

I've never understood why it's called "conspiracy theory".

A theory is something which can be tested and proved or disproved, whereas a conspiracy theory is something which either ignores all the evidence or moves the goalposts whenever disproof gets too close.

A better term would be "conspiracy belief".

Which gives a nice term for the personal noun - "conspiracy believer". Almost sounds like a religion, I wonder why.
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  #45  
Old 10.07.2021, 23:06
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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The point made in the original post here was:

11/ People who are dismissed as 'conspiracy theorists' are often well researched and simply ahead of the mainstream narrative.

My problem with that statement is that he's basically saying that most conspiracy theories are true. I'm not sure how exactly he's able to gauge that. Is it that only the conspiracy theories that he believes to be true are true? Or is he implying that he believes in most conspiracy theories and that most conspiracy theories are true?
As I tried to explain in my previous post, there are roughly three types of conspiracy theories:

1) fake ones, like Holocaust denial, moon landing denial
2) true ones, including price fixing, corruption etc
3) recreational ones, promulgated for the amusement of those who promote them, at the expense of people who don't have a sense of irony. Such as flat earth theory. Oddly the people who speak out against flat earth are mostly pharmacologiosts and sociologist who don't fully understand the physics they are trying to defend. This is what makes it all the funnier for those who do. Physicists mostly don't bother to take sides because they know its a joke. I believe that at least part of the moon landing denial scene is similarly of comical nature.

Now if the COVID denial theory and anti vaxx theories were comical. you would expect, analogously to what I said about physicists above, that people who understand best, in other words, doctors and pharma people, would think its funny and snigger into their sleeves and leave it to the sociologists and accountants to argue about stuff they don't understand.

But they don't.

So either doctors don't understand irony, or it genuinely is a theory that is either true or genuinely beieved by those who promote it
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  #46  
Old 10.07.2021, 23:14
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I've never understood why it's called "conspiracy theory".

A theory is something which can be tested and proved or disproved, whereas a conspiracy theory is something which either ignores all the evidence or moves the goalposts whenever disproof gets too close.

A better term would be "conspiracy belief".

Which gives a nice term for the personal noun - "conspiracy believer". Almost sounds like a religion, I wonder why.
it's about having a theory that a conspiracy exists. A classic example are conspiracy theories about jews. It's having a theory that they are conspiring in secret to control the world. Or in the more modern context, that the government and big pharma are conspiring to turns everybody into robots.

It can be true, or false, and you can actually verify it if you are the CIA tapping into everybody's phone. So it's more concrete than belief.

There is no hard border between the two and conspiracy theorists show religious behaviour. They meet, organize protests, have online forums, and will believe any new theory they see on youtube. It's like a lifestyle.
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  #47  
Old 10.07.2021, 23:41
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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As I tried to explain in my previous post, there are roughly three types of conspiracy theories:

1) fake ones, like Holocaust denial, moon landing denial
2) true ones, including price fixing, corruption etc
3) recreational ones, promulgated for the amusement of those who promote them, at the expense of people who don't have a sense of irony. Such as flat earth theory. Oddly the people who speak out against flat earth are mostly pharmacologiosts and sociologist who don't fully understand the physics they are trying to defend. This is what makes it all the funnier for those who do. Physicists mostly don't bother to take sides because they know its a joke. I believe that at least part of the moon landing denial scene is similarly of comical nature.

Now if the COVID denial theory and anti vaxx theories were comical. you would expect, analogously to what I said about physicists above, that people who understand best, in other words, doctors and pharma people, would think its funny and snigger into their sleeves and leave it to the sociologists and accountants to argue about stuff they don't understand.

But they don't.

So either doctors don't understand irony, or it genuinely is a theory that is either true or genuinely beieved by those who promote it
Well, yes, while there are conspiracy theories that are not true and some that may be true, there are clearly plenty of people who (obviously) are not able to distinguish between the two and who are completely unwilling to question the validity of their own beliefs. In fact, many studies have shown that there is a strong correlation between schizotypy and conspiracy-thinking. And one thing about conspiracy theorists is that they are very rarely even willing to accept the plausibility that their theory may not be true.

With Covid-denial, etc., I think it's more a matter of knowing how powerful that misinformation can be. A guy sitting in his basement watching conspiracy videos on youtube all night is one thing. But when you have a good percentage of the population convinced via misinformation or simply the "conspiracy theory" mindset that (for example) a pandemic is just a hoax, that's a different story -- particularly when it puts public health at risk.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement about flat-earthers and irony. The one "flat earther" that I know very much does believe that the earth is flat (and of course completely ignores any and all evidence that contradicts it); and I know there are organizations based on that theory, including a man who headed one of them and built a homemade rocket to photograph the earth from space in an attempt to prove that the earth is flat (he later died in a further attempt). Also, of course physicists don't take those people seriously. But perhaps what they do take seriously is a concern about the existence of that level of stupidity.
  #48  
Old 11.07.2021, 10:03
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Love how some people cant type something on the topic but have all the time in the world to open dictionaries ,make screenshots come here, post those screenshots etc etc
Half of this forum is using the term vax and vaxxed, try to find that in teh dictionary.. anyhow,some words will be soon in there like tiktoker,vaxxed etc

So come back to the topic
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  #49  
Old 11.07.2021, 10:50
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

4 and 9 for sure, remember that 3rd Reich thingy.

Not much different today with the social media generation, both the left and right are just as gullible today as they were in the last century.

I don’t think the pandemic caused these issues, maybe reaffirmed,they have been there as long as humanity existed in one guise or another.

I like Joe, don’t always agree with most things he says but he has his own slant on the World.
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Old 11.07.2021, 11:06
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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And one thing about conspiracy theorists is that they are very rarely even willing to accept the plausibility that their theory may not be true.
A bit like pro-vaxxers then?

To make sense of this we would need statistics.

How many pro vaxxers crossed the line and became anti vaxxers?
How many anti vaxxers crossed the line and became pro-vaxxers?

That would be a good measure of who is more capable of questioning their own thinking, no?

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With Covid-denial, etc., I think it's more a matter of knowing how powerful that misinformation can be. A guy sitting in his basement watching conspiracy videos on youtube all night is one thing. But when you have a good percentage of the population convinced via misinformation or simply the "conspiracy theory" mindset that (for example) a pandemic is just a hoax, that's a different story -- particularly when it puts public health at risk.
I think in this case you also need to look at the alternatives.

We have experts who are supposedly following "the science" who are telling us what to do. You need to keep this distance from another person. You need to wear your mask this way. In some countries a vaccination protects you for 6 months. In other countries the exact same vaccination does so for 12 months. A lot of this is not actually science but just made up rules. Or is the science in Switzerland different from that in Austria somehow?

I fear that this continuous appeal to "the science says" for things that are clearly not science is devaluing the word science in the public sphere and thus fueling the next waves of science denial.

"The Science" says for example that the Pfizer vaccine protects me but if I've had the Sinopharm jab while on vaccation that I'm still a danger to those around me. How strange that "the science" agrees with politics and that this jab only happens to work in countries that happen to be more friendly towards China (but also claim to follow "the science").

Oe why can't the powers that be just own up and stop attributing to "the science" what they themselves are proclaiming. Can't we just say, "The Berset" says? "The science" versus stupidity sounds very haughty, and can turn very ugly if for once stupidity gets something right that "the science" gets wrong. Now "The Berset" vs stupidity sounds much humbler, because we all know that Berset is sometimes also part of stupidity.

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I'm not sure I agree with your statement about flat-earthers and irony. The one "flat earther" that I know very much does believe that the earth is flat (and of course completely ignores any and all evidence that contradicts it); and I know there are organizations based on that theory, including a man who headed one of them and built a homemade rocket to photograph the earth from space in an attempt to prove that the earth is flat (he later died in a further attempt). Also, of course physicists don't take those people seriously. But perhaps what they do take seriously is a concern about the existence of that level of stupidity.
You met one guy?

I used to get their newsletter.
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  #51  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:07
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Love how some people cant type something on the topic but have all the time in the world to open dictionaries ,make screenshots come here, post those screenshots etc etc
Half of this forum is using the term vax and vaxxed, try to find that in teh dictionary.. anyhow,some words will be soon in there like tiktoker,vaxxed etc

So come back to the topic
You're accusing people of not being on topic while simultaneously shifting the topic to try to complain about the use of the term "vax," etc.

If you don't understand what someone means when they type the terms "vax" or "vaxxed," the problem is yours. Some people like to take shortcuts while typing, particularly when they're typing on a phone.
  #52  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:27
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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You're accusing people of not being on topic while simultaneously shifting the topic to try to complain about the use of the term "vax," etc.

If you don't understand what someone means when they type the terms "vax" or "vaxxed," the problem is yours. Some people like to take shortcuts while typing, particularly when they're typing on a phone.
Oh he’s not complaining about the use of the term vax/vaxxed etc.
He’s using it as an example of how words come into current usage to try to justify his use of a completely made up word. Conspiracionist is not a word, I’m sure he really meant to write conspirationist.

It’s quite ironic really, point #8 on the list is obviously made for him.
  #53  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:30
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Pancakees, I was minding my own business , meaning, talking on the topic and here comes someone to show me how the word I used is not really 'valid' ..then , another one popped in with a screenshot then another one joined the party as well.
I replied how even on wikihow they started using the 'conspirationist' and I made a comparison how vaxxing vaxxed very soon will make its entry as well.

My sincere apologies to you and that sweet group of people who filled out a whole page about me, the word I used and all that .
  #54  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:34
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Belgiummum if you only knew how many coined words I made up in my life , you'd be appaled

What can I say Even John Milton and Shakespeare would be jealous..Then again maybe I was influenced by some books and the work of David F Wallace.. so my apologies to you as well
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  #55  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:34
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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A bit like pro-vaxxers then?

To make sense of this we would need statistics.

How many pro vaxxers crossed the line and became anti vaxxers?
How many anti vaxxers crossed the line and became pro-vaxxers?

That would be a good measure of who is more capable of questioning their own thinking, no?



I think in this case you also need to look at the alternatives.

We have experts who are supposedly following "the science" who are telling us what to do. You need to keep this distance from another person. You need to wear your mask this way. In some countries a vaccination protects you for 6 months. In other countries the exact same vaccination does so for 12 months. A lot of this is not actually science but just made up rules. Or is the science in Switzerland different from that in Austria somehow?

I fear that this continuous appeal to "the science says" for things that are clearly not science is devaluing the word science in the public sphere and thus fueling the next waves of science denial.

"The Science" says for example that the Pfizer vaccine protects me but if I've had the Sinopharm jab while on vaccation that I'm still a danger to those around me. How strange that "the science" agrees with politics and that this jab only happens to work in countries that happen to be more friendly towards China (but also claim to follow "the science").

Oe why can't the powers that be just own up and stop attributing to "the science" what they themselves are proclaiming. Can't we just say, "The Berset" says? "The science" versus stupidity sounds very haughty, and can turn very ugly if for once stupidity gets something right that "the science" gets wrong. Now "The Berset" vs stupidity sounds much humbler, because we all know that Berset is sometimes also part of stupidity.



You met one guy?

I used to get their newsletter.


I used the one flat-earther that I know (thankfully, I don't know many) as an example of the fact that some flat-earthers do indeed very strongly believe that the earth is flat. That was in response to your comment as follows:

"recreational ones, promulgated for the amusement of those who promote them, at the expense of people who don't have a sense of irony. Such as flat earth theory. Oddly the people who speak out against flat earth are mostly pharmacologiosts and sociologist who don't fully understand the physics they are trying to defend. This is what makes it all the funnier for those who do. Physicists mostly don't bother to take sides because they know its a joke. I believe that at least part of the moon landing denial scene is similarly of comical nature."

Regarding Covid / the pandemic and "the Science" -- I think it's rather clear that our understanding of this virus and the vaccines, etc. have been evolving. How long someone is protected after being fully vaccinated is still being researched and probably varies according to which vaccine(s) they received as well as other factors (each individual immune system, etc.). There are quite a few studies being done about it now. And the fact that it is currently somewhat ambiguous regarding precisely how long a vaccine provides protection does not negate Science. It is Science that is being used to try to study and determine how long these vaccines provide protection, and that research is something that requires time.

So why is it that someone such as yourself criticizes people for "appealing to Science?" Are you suggesting that we should ignore Science in general and base our beliefs on ignorance instead? Should we only believe Science when we feel like it -- when it conforms with our cognitive biases or only when it conveniences us to NOT ignore Science?
  #56  
Old 11.07.2021, 11:58
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I used the one flat-earther that I know (thankfully, I don't know many) as an example of the fact that some flat-earthers do indeed very strongly believe that the earth is flat. T
Maybe there are also who people who actually believe in the Spaghetti Monster.

When you promote a joke theory or belief, you can never guarantee that there won't be people who don't see the joke.

But yet the vast majority of people who don't see the joke are actually those against the flat earth theory and who like to point fingers and accuse others of stupidity.

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Regarding Covid / the pandemic and "the Science"
"the science" <> science

Government proclamations and rules are not peer reviewed for a start.

The other day a guy came over and shouted at me for standing in the wrong place in the airport because I wasn't standing on a red spot on the floor. When I asked why he said "the science". He didn't look like the sort of guy who read many science books, or many books at all for that matter. I decided not to shame him by asking if there was any peer review on this location in particular or just on places without red spots in general.

Or for that matter why he didn't need to stand on a red spot himself. Maybe his fancy uniform gave him some sort of "science" protection?

Surely if they would hand out those uniforms to everybody, that would solve the problem, no?

Either that, or maybe he had misunderstood what science is?

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-- I think it's rather clear that our understanding of this virus and the vaccines, etc. have been evolving. How long someone is protected after being fully vaccinated is still being researched and probably varies according to which vaccine(s) they received as well as other factors
So, if the vaccine certificate was scientific, it would say "vaiid until our research is more conclusive". But no. It says "valid for 6 months" or whatever.

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So why is it that someone such as yourself criticizes people for "appealing to Science?" Are you suggesting that we should ignore Science in general and base our beliefs on ignorance instead?
I think that "The science" is in some cases a special sort of ignorance that misuses the word science.

Others seem to think that science is a magic word to excuse any nonsense.

It's very evil to do so actually, as it devalues real science and destroys people's trust in science and thus encourages even more anti-science opinions.

Scientists should know this and apply the word more carefully. It's very irresponsible.
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Old 11.07.2021, 12:19
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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So, if the vaccine certificate was scientific, it would say "vaiid until our research is more conclusive". But no. It says "valid for 6 months" or whatever.
Actually, I think a vaccine certificate says "valid for 6 months" (or whatever) because we know that the vaccines can provide protection for at least six months but studies have not yet been finalized to determine how much longer than six months a vaccine can still be effective in terms of proper antibodies.

Amogles, I think you and I could probably argue in circles infinitely, because we clearly have very different perspectives and opinions, and I don't think that any debate that we have here is really capable of changing that.
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Old 11.07.2021, 12:30
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Actually, I think a vaccine certificate says "valid for 6 months" (or whatever) because we know that the vaccines can provide protection for at least six months but studies have not yet been finalized to determine how much longer than six months a vaccine can still be effective in terms of proper antibodies.
It’s valid for a year now. I think there have been studies from the clinical trials showing that immunity lasts for that long.
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Old 11.07.2021, 13:13
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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It’s valid for a year now. I think there have been studies from the clinical trials showing that immunity lasts for that long.
In Switzerland. Not universally.

Maybe switzerland has a different science zone to Austria, and the moment you cross the border your antibodies disappear.
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Old 11.07.2021, 13:31
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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different science zone
Is it like a time zone?
 




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