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Old 11.07.2021, 13:43
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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In Switzerland. Not universally.

Maybe switzerland has a different science zone to Austria, and the moment you cross the border your antibodies disappear.
Austria has 360 day validity from the date if the first vaccination so it’s actually not that much different from Switzerland.

I guess they must be following the same kind of science.
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Old 11.07.2021, 13:47
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Love how some people cant type something on the topic but have all the time in the world to open dictionaries ,make screenshots come here, post those screenshots etc etc
Half of this forum is using the term vax and vaxxed, try to find that in teh dictionary.. anyhow,some words will be soon in there like tiktoker,vaxxed etc

So come back to the topic
I use vax and vaxed all the time. Using “jab” for an injection seems foreign to me (am from the US). I know it’s not in the dictionary. It’s an Internet forum or something, not writing class. But whatever.

You seem really concerned about staying on topic here. Good luck with that.
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  #63  
Old 11.07.2021, 16:14
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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As I tried to explain in my previous post, there are roughly three types of conspiracy theories:
1) fake ones, like Holocaust denial, moon landing denial
2) true ones, including price fixing, corruption etc
3) recreational ones, promulgated for the amusement of those who promote them, at the expense of people who don't have a sense of irony.
I come from a baseline of 'fact is always stranger than fiction', so I don't see it that way. I see...


1) Denial - denial of facts based upon solid evidence and vast amounts of eye witness testimony. I find it quite reasonable that some people would be so shocked by historical events, that they struggle to believe them at all or prefer not to think about them. What I find repulsive about things like Holocaust denial is that the 'motive' proffered by such people, is so flimsy and diluted compared to the actual motive, that it becomes offensive.


2) Conspiracies - Since Brutus stabbed Caeser, conspiracies have often surrounded pivotal events in history. Sometimes you see them evolving in real time, sometimes you only become truly aware of them after the event.

Conspiracies are part of every day life from price fixing to surprise birthday parties.


3) Conspiracy theories - To my mind, these almost always have a nugget of varifiable truth within them. They become 'theories' when they're conflated with other unconnected information or events to create something more dramatic, fantastical, sinister or just plain daft. I once heard them referred to as 'what happens when someone reads the last two chapters of a thriller and has to guess what came before'.

We're living through a worldwide pandemic. That doesn't require any embellishment thank you very much!

To me, what is more interesting are things like... Would the world be different if Lee Harvey Oswald had lived long enough to stand trial? But without his testimony, if indeed he would have given one, the whole incident is left rife with conspiracy theories. The hardest part for us humans to accept is, we may never know the truth of why that all happened, so we fill in the gaps ourselves or believe 'the truth' is being withheld from us.


4) Secrets - The most frustrating of the lot in my experience. The wartime activities of a family member are still covered by The Official Secrets Act despite repeated requests for information.


5) Concerns - These can be legitimate, arise of a lack of understanding / information, perceived lack of control / self-determination, or fueled by personal fears and phobias. These often overlap into, or are the basis of 2, 3 + 4.
  #64  
Old 11.07.2021, 16:22
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Using “jab” for an injection seems foreign to me (am from the US).
I always thought of jab in the context of vaccinations, as more of a Scottish turn of phrase, until annual flu jabs became a regular thing 20+yrs ago. https://www.boots-uk.com/media-centr...-for-over-65s/
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  #65  
Old 12.07.2021, 10:59
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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It’s valid for a year now. I think there have been studies from the clinical trials showing that immunity lasts for that long.
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In Switzerland. Not universally.

Maybe switzerland has a different science zone to Austria, and the moment you cross the border your antibodies disappear.


It is possible to upload the Swiss Covid certificate into EU country apps which may be helpful when travelling.

The German app is all in English too and I just uploaded my Swiss certificate without any problem at all.

Interestingly the validity on the German app is two years. I wonder which science zone they’re in?
  #66  
Old 12.07.2021, 12:01
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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A bit like pro-vaxxers then?

To make sense of this we would need statistics.

How many pro vaxxers crossed the line and became anti vaxxers?
How many anti vaxxers crossed the line and became pro-vaxxers?

That would be a good measure of who is more capable of questioning their own thinking, no?



I think in this case you also need to look at the alternatives.

We have experts who are supposedly following "the science" who are telling us what to do. You need to keep this distance from another person. You need to wear your mask this way. In some countries a vaccination protects you for 6 months. In other countries the exact same vaccination does so for 12 months. A lot of this is not actually science but just made up rules. Or is the science in Switzerland different from that in Austria somehow?

I fear that this continuous appeal to "the science says" for things that are clearly not science is devaluing the word science in the public sphere and thus fueling the next waves of science denial.

"The Science" says for example that the Pfizer vaccine protects me but if I've had the Sinopharm jab while on vaccation that I'm still a danger to those around me. How strange that "the science" agrees with politics and that this jab only happens to work in countries that happen to be more friendly towards China (but also claim to follow "the science").
Such a great comment.
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  #67  
Old 12.07.2021, 15:41
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I come from a baseline of 'fact is always stranger than fiction', so I don't see it that way. I see...


1) Denial - denial of facts based upon solid evidence and vast amounts of eye witness testimony. I find it quite reasonable that some people would be so shocked by historical events,
There is typically truth to the saying that there is no smoke without fire.

Almost every crazy conspiracy theory probably has at its heart some facts that are in some way under some special conditions either true, or have at least grown around a flaw in the official narrative. Case in point JFK.

Or why were the original high-quality recordings of the moon landing accidentally deleted for example? Stuff like this, which may very well be due to incompetence, obvious has the potential to make people seek other explanations.

We have many examples, for example from Eastern Europe in communist times, of the government or the government-aligned press distorting news to dispel criticism of the government, or cover up the failure of their schemes. People learnt to read between the lines and keep their eyes trained for what was not said as much as for what was said. There was also a massive underground press with people being able to read alternative information

In western countries there has typically been a free and investigative press who were always seeking out mud on the government or anybody else. And if they didn't get onto a story, the competitor would. So if you discovered something, no matter how unpleasant, you published it. So capitalism helped make it difficult to hide uncomfortable facts. Of course the reverse of that coin was that some of the less serious parts of the press would also embellish or at even fabricate stories. But people by and large worked out which newspapers they could believe and which to read more for entertainment.

Today this dynamism has been lessened somewhat. Journalists are called upon to not rock the boat. You avoid writing anything bad about the vaccinations because that would just encourage the anti-vaxxers. You don't write anything bad about refugees because that would feed the far right. In other words the press avoids telling the truth for reasons of political expedience.

But if you don't get serious journalists criticizing the government, then somebody else will slip into that role and do that job. And this is where you get the youtube pundits and other conspiracy theorists, often picking up on valid points initially, and then collecting a following who want to know more. Many of these sources don't actually have more to say, but they want to keep their following and do so by talking out of their @arse. In my opinion, this is a direct result of the failure of the serious press to do their job properly.
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Old 12.07.2021, 19:33
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

I suspect there may be a rather strong correlation between the susceptibility to the belief in conspiracy theories and the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Apparently, the top conspiracy theories include the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting having never taken place, COVID-19 as means of population control (e.g. the vaccine implants a microchip that is used to track people), the earth is flat, Princess Diana's death was not an accident, the moon landing was faked, Democrats are part of a child sex ring involving a pizza parlor that serves as a meeting ground for Satanic ritual abuse (aka "Pizzagate"), and the Holocaust never occurred.

Think about how many people out there actually believed in "Pizzagate." "A poll conducted by Public Policy Polling on December 6–7, 2016, asked 1,224 U.S. registered voters if they thought Hillary Clinton was "connected to a child sex ring being run out of a pizzeria in Washington DC". Nine percent of respondents said they believed she was connected, 72% said they did not, and 19% were not sure."*

That means that 28% of the people polled actually either believed it to be true or at least lent it enough credibility that they were "unsure" if it was true.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzag...Public_opinion

Back to my original point -- I think that some people (perhaps even most) will eagerly believe something as long as it conforms with their cognitive biases (e.g. hatred for Democrats, hatred for Jews, distrust of the government, etc.), regardless of how ridiculous that theory is or the overwhelming amount of evidence that does not support that theory -- particularly if they feel that that conspiracy theory somehow validates their existing beliefs or ideologies.

So I guess this relates to one of the points in the original post here -- that it is easier to fool someone than it is to convince them that they have been fooled. Anyone with an internet connection and a strong enough desire can now go online, create a lie, and then attempt to spread that lie or theory like a virus. And like opening a Pandora's box, that lie will just then multiply via the cognitive biases of everyone else who wants to believe it to be true. We're living in an era now where the same people who claim to distrust the media will eagerly believe some random guy with a channel on youtube as long as whatever views that guy propagates conforms with or validates their existing views.

Unfortunately, the Age of Information has also given rise to the Age of Misinformation. And sadly, there are a lot of people out there who base their beliefs not on evidence or logic and critical thinking but rather on what they want to be true.
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  #69  
Old 12.07.2021, 21:41
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Pancakes, don't you think ...it all comes back to the (the Apocryphal Twain): "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do, you're misinformed."

How can people these days believe anything they hear or see in the news is a mystery to me. Because, so many so many times actually all the time , we've been lied to. Forced to believe this is "evil' or that's "evil" .. Have you seen how many times, each huge scandal has been put under the carpet (by that same media).. but, we listen all the time how kim yong il is the real threat, putin, bashir ,iran ...? how come everyday every single day the way they "inform us" (brainwash us) who's the threat and evil they dont talk about Jimmy Savile case(and his friends and all that) , epstein island, comet ping pong?

What happens in reality is how real (investigative) journalists are been threatened, dead in strange circumstances .. and there's less and less , almost none of that journalism anyhow... And if you question any of these topics including the moon landing, the official propaganda has set the rules how, if you do : then you are dumb, low IQ , a loony, you wear aluminum hat ..etc.

So , case closed. you have to listen and believe in the official narrative.
Very few people really want to know what's happening and what's going on behind the fancy decor. Because somehow , we've been all conditioned in hearing and wanting to believe "the comforting lie than the unpleasant truth" .
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Old 12.07.2021, 22:18
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

What people treat as modern myths and what they consider to be true depends on so many things.. I like the idea of a complete objectivity but do not think it is universally possible. There is a risk of prescriptive dogma.
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Old 12.07.2021, 22:25
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Pancakes, don't you think ...it all comes back to the (the Apocryphal Twain): "If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do, you're misinformed."

How can people these days believe anything they hear or see in the news is a mystery to me. Because, so many so many times actually all the time , we've been lied to. Forced to believe this is "evil' or that's "evil" .. Have you seen how many times, each huge scandal has been put under the carpet (by that same media).. but, we listen all the time how kim yong il is the real threat, putin, bashir ,iran ...? how come everyday every single day the way they "inform us" (brainwash us) who's the threat and evil they dont talk about Jimmy Savile case(and his friends and all that) , epstein island, comet ping pong?

What happens in reality is how real (investigative) journalists are been threatened, dead in strange circumstances .. and there's less and less , almost none of that journalism anyhow... And if you question any of these topics including the moon landing, the official propaganda has set the rules how, if you do : then you are dumb, low IQ , a loony, you wear aluminum hat ..etc.

So , case closed. you have to listen and believe in the official narrative.
Very few people really want to know what's happening and what's going on behind the fancy decor. Because somehow , we've been all conditioned in hearing and wanting to believe "the comforting lie than the unpleasant truth" .
Well, sometimes there exists a perfectly good reason(s) for the existence of the "official narrative." i.e. why that narrative is true or is considered to be true.

Let's look at the early days of this pandemic. I remember a lot of people claiming that the Covid virus and the pandemic was a hoax and/or that it was nothing to worry about, that the press (and anyone else) was just overreacting about it, etc. whenever they would report about it or express concern. In fact, even my own elderly father thought for a while that maybe it was just a conspiracy because of the fact that the pandemic happened to occur during a US election. Essentially, making false connections. Well, we now know that the virus is real, the pandemic is real, etc. and that whoever was warning us about a pandemic back then was actually not exaggerating or overreacting. Sure, the press sometimes sensationalizes things, but also, sometimes they just report the facts and people subjectively interpret that as sensationalism or overreacting.

So that was a case where people were wanting to believe "the comforting lie [rather] than the unpleasant truth" when in fact, the truth was the "official narrative."

Basically, I think that people need to try to not let their cognitive biases override their common sense. If you distrust the media, that's fine. But that doesn't mean that any time the media reports something that you don't agree with, that it isn't true. If someone wants to propagate the theory that the moon landing was a hoax or that the Holocaust never happened, does it really make sense for that person to get angry if someone ignores or negates their theory while they themselves are ignoring the evidence that goes against it?

I think that, with conspiracy theories, there is often a lot of superstition involved (false causality, false connections, etc.). As humans, we sometimes search for meaning in the meaningless.
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Old 13.07.2021, 00:58
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Well, sometimes there exists a perfectly good reason(s) for the existence of the "official narrative." i.e. why that narrative is true or is considered to be true.
Yes.

Do you think that the government always feeds you the truth, all of it? Or would you entertain the notion that people in power sometimes cover their own tracks, be it to hide their own mistakes and incompetence, or be it to create some material or tactical advantage for themselves? Or maybe because they don't always know what they are doing and are just flapping around.
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Old 13.07.2021, 09:09
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Do you think that the government always feeds you the truth, all of it? Or would you entertain the notion that people in power sometimes cover their own tracks, be it to hide their own mistakes and incompetence, or be it to create some material or tactical advantage for themselves? Or maybe because they don't always know what they are doing and are just flapping around.
Of course I don't. Just look at what America's last President said about Covid, despite knowing otherwise. He admittedly lied when he said that the Coronavirus was "no big deal" and would just "go away like a miracle."

I think it's difficult to throw around blanketed statements in regard to trusting the government or authority in general. It is composed of many different people with many different agendas. But what I see increasingly happening in the US is an erosion of basic common sense. And I think some or much of that is due to cognitive bias and black-and-white / polarized thinking, which is actually a cognitive defect.
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Old 13.07.2021, 09:14
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Covid was/is bad, but not as bad as it was made out initially. I give them benefit of doubt, as they themselves maybe did not know what they were dealing with.

We have on one side people who don't believe anything that comes from official sources, and on the other side we have people who believe everything like gospel! Both positions are kind of bad.
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Old 13.07.2021, 09:55
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Covid was/is bad, but not as bad as it was made out initially. I give them benefit of doubt, as they themselves maybe did not know what they were dealing with.

We have on one side people who don't believe anything that comes from official sources, and on the other side we have people who believe everything like gospel! Both positions are kind of bad.
Well, Trump openly admitted that he lied about the virus / pandemic. He had just been provided with a lengthy document issued to countries around the world, informing them about the virus (what was known at the time) and warning these countries about it as well as a pending pandemic. He chose to ignore that document and instead deliberately lied and negated the threat of the virus. And we saw the repercussions of that for a long time (and still do). Covid-deniers, etc.

But I guess that's a big part of the problem. There are a lot of people who base their beliefs on what they want to be true -- regardless of what actually is true. Perhaps it's a bit like trying to have a debate with a theist. They want god to exist, therefore god exists. I don't want the pandemic to be real, therefore it isn't real. Some people seem to care more about self-validating their beliefs than they actually care about truth itself, I guess. Unfortunately, we seem to be living in a time where many people believe that they get to choose what is true or isn't true -- perhaps now more than ever. Or perhaps that's always been the case.

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Old 13.07.2021, 11:04
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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What people treat as modern myths and what they consider to be true depends on so many things.. I like the idea of a complete objectivity but do not think it is universally possible. There is a risk of prescriptive dogma.
I don’t think objectivity is possible, not complete objectivity. We see different sides of the same subject and believe our side to be true based on experience and bias. We can sometimes accept the alternative view, or at least try to give it credit.
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Old 13.07.2021, 12:26
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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But I guess that's a big part of the problem. There are a lot of people who base their beliefs on what they want to be true -- regardless of what actually is true. Perhaps it's a bit like trying to have a debate with a theist. They want god to exist, therefore god exists. I don't want the pandemic to be real, therefore it isn't real.
And how about:

If the other guys refuse to change their opinion it's because they are suffering from confirmation bias and are shutting themselves off to the truth.

If I don't want to change my opinion it's because I know that I am right.
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Old 13.07.2021, 12:37
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I don’t think objectivity is possible, not complete objectivity. We see different sides of the same subject and believe our side to be true based on experience and bias. We can sometimes accept the alternative view, or at least try to give it credit.
Maybe bias and culture and deeply intertwined and this is the root of tribalism. We chose to associate with people who have the same biases as us.

There is no objective reason that human life needs to be protected. This is a cultural more, created and handed down by millenia of religious and philosophical teachings and refined and developed over time. Different cultures may attach different valuations to the importance of protecting human life, and maybe even its definition. See for example differing opinions on abortion and euthanasia.

And this comes to the fore in the covid debate. Some people think that protecting people's lives against covid should have the highest priority. Even if it means locking people in prison and having people rot away in misery because they lose their social contacts and job and lose all will to live.

Some people wait to cross the street when the red man shows, even if its 3am and there isn't a car for miles. Others will jay-walk in heavy traffic. People have different levels of risk awareness, which also has to do with courage.

I think that one part of self-awareness and self analysis is that you can disentangle your objective beliefs from your cultural ones.
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Old 13.07.2021, 12:41
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I don’t think objectivity is possible, not complete objectivity. We see different sides of the same subject and believe our side to be true based on experience and bias. We can sometimes accept the alternative view, or at least try to give it credit.
This.
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Old 13.07.2021, 14:02
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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And how about:

If the other guys refuse to change their opinion it's because they are suffering from confirmation bias and are shutting themselves off to the truth.

If I don't want to change my opinion it's because I know that I am right.
Well, objective truth is objective truth, regardless of human perception. It's when human perception comes in that things can get fuzzy. And I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of people are unwilling to admit if they're wrong.

Years ago, when I was on Facebook, there was someone in my friend's list who would constantly message me and try to convince me that the earth is flat. For a while, I attempted to engage in rational debate with him (to what extent that was possible). Eventually, he became so persistent in constantly trying to prove to me that the earth is flat -- all while completely ignoring any evidence I presented to him that proves otherwise -- that I finally unfriended and blocked him. (This was someone I didn't know in person).

So when it comes to debates, sometimes the debate just simply isn't worth the time and energy -- particularly when you're dealing with someone who chooses to ignore any evidence that disproves their theory or contradicts it. It came to a point where I realized it was irrational of me to expect to have a rational conversation with that guy. So it's not always simply a matter of not wanting to change your opinion or hear the other guy out. Sometimes it's just a matter of not wanting to waste any more time attempting to have a rational debate with someone who isn't rational.
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