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  #81  
Old 13.07.2021, 14:19
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I don’t think objectivity is possible, not complete objectivity. We see different sides of the same subject and believe our side to be true based on experience and bias. We can sometimes accept the alternative view, or at least try to give it credit.
I am thrilled you share the same point of view.

To the point - what lacks in acceptance anyone can make up with good ol' respek. EF is great, EF separate brains are amazing, EF common think tank is a power house.

I love seeing Dunning-Kruger being advertized, I always feel warm and fuzzy when something I had to quantify, resurfaces..Cognition is cognition. And belongs to any point of view: left, right, centre and all 50 shades of gray.
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  #82  
Old 13.07.2021, 14:20
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I am thrilled you share the same point of view.

To the point - what lacks in acceptance anyone can make up with good ol' respek. EF is great, EF separate brains are amazing, EF common think tank is a power house.

I love seeing Dunning-Kruger being advertized, I always feel warm and fuzzy when something I had to quantify, resurfaces..Cognition is cognition. And belongs to any point of view: left, right, centre and all 50 shades of gray.
Share the same point of view with whom? Oh, with you? Sure…. we have studied similar topics albeit years apart.

And of course, cognition has no particular point of view.

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  #83  
Old 13.07.2021, 17:07
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Or why were the original high-quality recordings of the moon landing accidentally deleted for example? Stuff like this, which may very well be due to incompetence, obvious has the potential to make people seek other explanations.
But this has happened previously, famously in the case of 'The Magnificent 11', when most of Robert Capa's photos of the D-Day landings were accidentally destroyed whilst the films were in the drying cabinet, yet nobody denies the D-Day landings. https://www.magnumphotos.com/newsroo...y-omaha-beach/

As for the moon landing, I saw it live on tv with my parents and our neighbours. At the time, that live broadcast broke the record for the largest viewing audience worldwide, and held that record for about a decade.

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There was also a massive underground press with people being able to read alternative information...

...Of course the reverse of that coin was that some of the less serious parts of the press would also embellish or at even fabricate stories. But people by and large worked out which newspapers they could believe and which to read more for entertainment.
There's no such thing as "alternative information", just truth, lies, exaggeration, suppression, propaganda and narratives. Our 'job' as responsible adults is to sift through the bile and hogwash for the truth. Of course, you can choose to only read what fits your personal belief system, but as a lifelong centrist, I would struggle to find a news outlet, let alone a newspaper, that fits me.

As examples...The BBC has been stung twice for reporting breaking news incorrectly. Since the first one (the Cliff Richard debacle), they've become hesitant to the point of no longer being a source of breaking news. That takes nothing away from the standard of their World Service, but I've not referred to them first for about 20yrs. Reuters is the gold standard. Reuters have access that other news organisations can only dream of.

As I've said many times here, I've not bought a newspaper since Sept. 1997.

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Today this dynamism has been lessened somewhat. Journalists are called upon to not rock the boat.
That's where you lose me, and it's also where the likes of CNN lose me.

News reporting isn't supposed to be 'dynamic'. News reporting should be cold, hard facts. It shouldn't be dynamic and dramatic. The first rule in news reporting is that you should report the story, not BE the story. A lot of people forget that.

A large part of the problem, particularly in the US, is having to produce enough content for the 24hr news cycle, so you get a glut of fluff and opinion that's tiresome at best. The US has the additional problem of covering 6 time zones, so the news cycle is virtually on repeat to account for this.

My issue with online news blogs, youtube, etc, is, for every time you see "You won't see this reported in MSM!", you can damned well guarantee that it's because the story was reported last year, or it's a total fabrication, but that's the crap which sucks people in because they think they're being given privileged information or being let in on a secret.
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  #84  
Old 13.07.2021, 17:16
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Maybe there are also who people who actually believe in the Spaghetti Monster.

But yet the vast majority of people who don't see the joke are actually those against the flat earth theory and who like to point fingers and accuse others of stupidity.
i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster and that he created the earth as a flat surface resembling a plate.
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  #85  
Old 13.07.2021, 17:18
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster and that he created the earth as a flat surface resembling a plate.
Ramen to that.
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  #86  
Old 13.07.2021, 17:23
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Well, objective truth is objective truth, regardless of human perception. It's when human perception comes in that things can get fuzzy. And I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of people are unwilling to admit if they're wrong.

Years ago, when I was on Facebook, there was someone in my friend's list who would constantly message me and try to convince me that the earth is flat. For a while, I attempted to engage in rational debate with him (to what extent that was possible). Eventually, he became so persistent in constantly trying to prove to me that the earth is flat -- all while completely ignoring any evidence I presented to him that proves otherwise -- that I finally unfriended and blocked him. (This was someone I didn't know in person).

So when it comes to debates, sometimes the debate just simply isn't worth the time and energy -- particularly when you're dealing with someone who chooses to ignore any evidence that disproves their theory or contradicts it. It came to a point where I realized it was irrational of me to expect to have a rational conversation with that guy. So it's not always simply a matter of not wanting to change your opinion or hear the other guy out. Sometimes it's just a matter of not wanting to waste any more time attempting to have a rational debate with someone who isn't rational.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." Been there, done that.
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Old 13.07.2021, 17:52
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster and that he created the earth as a flat surface resembling a plate.
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Ramen to that.
To be fair, Pastafarians’ religious headgear at least has a strong connection to the deity that they worship.

https://www.spaghettimonster.org/201...ear-statement/
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  #88  
Old 13.07.2021, 18:40
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Share the same point of view with whom?
Here, lemi quote.

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I like the idea of a complete objectivity but do not think it is universally possible.
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I don’t think objectivity is possible, not complete objectivity.
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Old 13.07.2021, 18:41
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster..
I believe in spagetti bolognese. Sometimes it is almost a cult.

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Ramen to that.
That's for the breakfast thread.
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Old 13.07.2021, 18:46
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster and that he created the earth as a flat surface resembling a plate.
No you are wrong, Spaghetti is harvested in Ticino according to BBC's Panorama programme. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVo_wkxH9dU
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  #91  
Old 13.07.2021, 20:22
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Here, lemi quote.
Got it. I realized that after. But of course….we have studied similar topics, albeit many years apart….as I said in my edit above.
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  #92  
Old 13.07.2021, 20:39
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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i very much believe in the sphaghetti monster and that he created the earth as a flat surface resembling a plate.
Actually no, he spewed it out after a night of heavy drinking.
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  #93  
Old 14.07.2021, 14:10
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Cognition is cognition. And belongs to any point of view: left, right, centre

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I am thrilled you share the same point of view.

To the point - what lacks in acceptance anyone can make up with good ol' respek. .
I'm glad that we share the same point of view, MC. It took you a while, but you're there now.

Who knows, EF might turn out a great place in the end. Albeit with a lot less people we could (respectfully, I assume) disagree with.

Keep it up.
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Old 14.07.2021, 16:28
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

I wanted to add something to the Dunning kruger effect that Pancakes mentioned..

This one to me is funny as well .. It was launched as a fancy way how to discredit another opinion or even thinking, by the same "machinery" 15y ago , .etc. in papers like the newyorkpost, youtube with some idiots like penn&teller show .. where at the time it was about the GMO's , round up ...

What's funny is how intelligent people were/are buying this. So basically, someone explains to you how the one that does not agree with a certain (official) statement,theory,rule that those people who don't agree, are even on the opposite side of the official narrative.. are simply stupid, dumb, with low ability and they overrestimate their capabilities and think how they're smarter than they actually are .. and then I'm supposed to nod to that and think "mmm yes , I'm smarter, they're dumb. I will stick with the official theory told by people who trust and believe science, law, education ! I am not going to be one of those dumb ones "

Well the problem is , in this manipulation. The truth is, people dumb or not are not coming up with some convinctions just like that, out of spite or who knows what.

In reality, whether it's about the GMO's or round up or fluoride, war in iraq, covid .. there are equal number of scientists who are pro-GMO or against GMO . (i'm using this as an example)
There were some who certified and claimed how there are WMD in Iraq and we have to bomb them but there were also scientists and nuclear experts who claimed how that is not true .
So if my position is to stick with the ones who said "it's not true" why is that making me dumb and how come dunning kruger effect applies to me? since I didnt come up with it myself I'm just following the scientist who says "no" than the one who says "yes" ?

And I think this is where lies the whole problem and confusion . Also the fact how year after year we've been drowned and soaked into that type of indoctrination, these days , you're not even allowed really to say something against the mainstream . End we will end up all like sheep worshiping our masters (since they know what's the best for us)

Remember how at one stage there was this huge huge virus scare , ZIKA ? it just came out when it was the Olympic games , half the sportsmen didnt even go there.. and coincidentally ZIKA was over at the same time as the games. We didnt hear anything once it was over. How come? pure coincidence? maybe. I can elaborate a lot on the 2010 h1n1 virus but maybe another time ..

My point is how it seems it does not bother people the fact how under the "dunning kruger effect" formula we're turning back on science and scientists while at the same time we congratulate overselves thinking "hey I'm smart not like those quakes, I'm pro science" .
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Old 14.07.2021, 22:36
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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What's funny is how intelligent people were/are buying this. So basically, someone explains to you how the one that does not agree with a certain (official) statement,theory,rule that those people who don't agree, are even on the opposite side of the official narrative.. are simply stupid, dumb, with low ability and they overrestimate their capabilities and think how they're smarter than they actually are .. and then I'm supposed to nod to that and think "mmm yes , I'm smarter, they're dumb....[snip]

My point is how it seems it does not bother people the fact how under the "dunning kruger effect" formula..
Yes.

I wouldn't get too hung up on D-K. Nor any other psychological phenomenon that gets dug out in a political argument. There probably is a syndrome to apply per every single one of us. If we used that as an argument, where does it get people in a debate? Nowhere. I never expect people to agree with me. Political debates or any debates get much more interesting when people have different opinions or offer nuances. I really enjoy it, when people engage civilly and in good faith, while bringing something new or different. Whether we are smart, and realize it; or not smart but not realizing it; or smart and not realizing it; or not smart but knowing it - who cares?
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Old 14.07.2021, 22:58
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I wanted to add something to the Dunning kruger effect that Pancakes mentioned..

This one to me is funny as well .. It was launched as a fancy way how to discredit another opinion or even thinking, by the same "machinery" 15y ago , .etc. in papers like the newyorkpost, youtube with some idiots like penn&teller show .. where at the time it was about the GMO's , round up ...

What's funny is how intelligent people were/are buying this. So basically, someone explains to you how the one that does not agree with a certain (official) statement,theory,rule that those people who don't agree, are even on the opposite side of the official narrative.. are simply stupid, dumb, with low ability and they overrestimate their capabilities and think how they're smarter than they actually are .. and then I'm supposed to nod to that and think "mmm yes , I'm smarter, they're dumb. I will stick with the official theory told by people who trust and believe science, law, education ! I am not going to be one of those dumb ones "

Well the problem is , in this manipulation. The truth is, people dumb or not are not coming up with some convinctions just like that, out of spite or who knows what.

In reality, whether it's about the GMO's or round up or fluoride, war in iraq, covid .. there are equal number of scientists who are pro-GMO or against GMO . (i'm using this as an example)
There were some who certified and claimed how there are WMD in Iraq and we have to bomb them but there were also scientists and nuclear experts who claimed how that is not true .
So if my position is to stick with the ones who said "it's not true" why is that making me dumb and how come dunning kruger effect applies to me? since I didnt come up with it myself I'm just following the scientist who says "no" than the one who says "yes" ?

And I think this is where lies the whole problem and confusion . Also the fact how year after year we've been drowned and soaked into that type of indoctrination, these days , you're not even allowed really to say something against the mainstream . End we will end up all like sheep worshiping our masters (since they know what's the best for us)

Remember how at one stage there was this huge huge virus scare , ZIKA ? it just came out when it was the Olympic games , half the sportsmen didnt even go there.. and coincidentally ZIKA was over at the same time as the games. We didnt hear anything once it was over. How come? pure coincidence? maybe. I can elaborate a lot on the 2010 h1n1 virus but maybe another time ..

My point is how it seems it does not bother people the fact how under the "dunning kruger effect" formula we're turning back on science and scientists while at the same time we congratulate overselves thinking "hey I'm smart not like those quakes, I'm pro science" .
Curiously, FairDinkum, what do you think about the flat-earth theory and flat earthers, what do you think about Holocaust deniers, and people who think the Sandy Hook Elementary school shooting never happened?

I don't think that the Dunning-Kruger effect applies to ALL conspiracy theories, but I do think it may apply to some.

Do you believe that the earth is flat? If not, why not?
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Old 14.07.2021, 23:34
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

It does look like some opinions seem to be viewed more true only because they are popular. Whether something is popular, because it's true, or considered true because it is popular...has not much to do with smartness.

Extreme "can do" uncritical support, simply, or hyperactivity can make one make up some weird stuff, too. I mean, I never thought I would encounter people who believe in themselves being from Mars or believing in angels, before I met them in the US.

I think that overly enthusiastic scientists in the past were certainly not dumb. Even if what they figured out was sometimes not useful or true, in terms of wrong theories - I still think they were not less smart just because they tested theories that proved wrong.

So - shrugging all those opinions that aren't identical to ours off the table as inadequate, is a way to shut down learning and progress. If somebody still wants to believe in something that has been long proven false - it is their own business. If there are many such folks, we better start questioning the volume of support and socio-affective reasons people want to believe some idea, together, and refuse other idea, together. If togetherness comes out as a priority, even when truth gets sacrifiiced, then we have a homework to do to provide a better togetherness. Instead of shooing alternate opinions away, bashing, calling people not smart, offering unsolicited diagnosis and being negative about their beliefs.
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Old 15.07.2021, 00:35
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

I was just about to doze off watching some series with some good looking people when I saw how the internet it calling me And me, I have to serve my country and forum in honour.

Pancakes, you cant put everything in the same pot and say " flat earth, covid, the Shoah, GMO, waco siege, High fructose corn syrup etc, and now what ? " ..

About flat earth I have no opinion..But I can show you how the doubt starts ...for ex. it seems to be how all the photos we have from the planet earth are CGI.. not a single one that's a real photo of this planet. Sounds strange doesnt it ?

no1. You have here the celebrity astro-physicist Neil de Grasse who explains in this 20y old video, what's the shape of the earth ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTOE4Ar0Dfo

If it's oblique then pear shaped ... how come we havent photos of the earth in that shape? this shape is never thought in schoolbooks or in general...
Then, because of this confusion there was once an image released by NASA saying smthg like , voila , here is a recent photo of the earth ... What was funny on that photo is how the continents their proportions , the oceans and all that , was , exactly like a mercato map. The map that dates from the 15th century and it is considered as inexact. ( we use it but it's false) . Also there are scientists who prefer the Gall–Peters projection rectangular map that again is accepted but it's false as well. (they agree on this)
This brings us to the question, how come NASA and in general what's considered education/science are giving us the globus - the continents size, proportions and all that are inexact. Or, how come when a satellite or space station is taking a pic from the earth it is showing an inaccurate map. (and never really the pear shaped rock)

Of course, no one really knows why is this and this is how after all fantasies are allowed and we end up with all sorts of theories,flat earth societies.

Concerning the holocaust, again that's not really science. History is an agreement and it does depend on many political factors. Myself I have some distant members of my family victims at tTreblinka, I've seen their surnames engraved, do I know it all? I guess no but I'm first in line to hear the findings of a historian that can show - prove whatever he/she have found out . I simply dont believe in dogma , omerta etc.
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Old 15.07.2021, 02:37
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

And here is the crux of the argument... you say "we know that the vaccines can provide protection for at least six months."

We absolutely do NOT know this. And even "scientists" like to say that "Science changes its mind as new information becomes available. That is not disinformation. It is literally how science works." A "scientist" that I know said that to me the other day and I largely agree. Which is why I say that we absolutely do NOT know that any/all vaccines provide protection for at least 6 months.


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Actually, I think a vaccine certificate says "valid for 6 months" (or whatever) because we know that the vaccines can provide protection for at least six months but studies have not yet been finalized to determine how much longer than six months a vaccine can still be effective in terms of proper antibodies.

Amogles, I think you and I could probably argue in circles infinitely, because we clearly have very different perspectives and opinions, and I don't think that any debate that we have here is really capable of changing that.
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Old 15.07.2021, 07:06
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Joe Rogan was talking about some guy called Zuby music and his Twitter 20 point list. Do you agree or disagree with any of the points?

Unfortunately, I agree with all 21 points to varying degree! It is Friday, so I will post it here. Btw these points apply to people on EF too

__________________

1/ Most people would rather be in the majority, than be right.

2/ At least 20% of the population has strong authoritarian tendencies, which will emerge under the right conditions.
TTYL- Higher than 20% in my opinion

3/ Fear of death is only rivalled by the fear of social disapproval. The latter could be stronger.

4/ Propaganda is just as effective in the modern day as it was 100 years ago. Access to limitless information has not made the average person any wiser.

5/ Anything and everything can and will be politicized by the media, government, and those who trust them.

6/ Many politicians and large corporations will gladly sacrifice human lives if it is conducive to their political and financial aspirations.

7/ Most people believe the government acts in the best interests of the people. Even many who are vocal critics of the government.

8/ Once they have made up their mind, most people would rather to commit to being wrong, than admit they were wrong.
TTYL- Most on EF too

9/ Humans can be trained and conditioned quickly and relatively easily to significantly alter their behaviours - for better or worse.

10/ When sufficiently frightened, most people will not only accept authoritarianism, but demand it.

11/ People who are dismissed as 'conspiracy theorists' are often well researched and simply ahead of the mainstream narrative.

12/ Most people value safety and security more than freedom and liberty, even if said 'safety' is merely an illusion.

13/ Hedonic adaptation occurs in both directions, and once inertia sets in, it is difficult to get people back to 'normal'.

14/ A significant % of people thoroughly enjoy being subjugated.

15/ 'The Science' has evolved into a secular pseudo-religion for millions of people in the West. This religion has little to do with science itself.

16/ Most people care more about looking like they are doing the right thing, rather than actually doing the right thing.

17/ Politics, the media, science, and the healthcare industries are all corrupt, to varying degrees. Scientists and doctors can be bought as easily as politicians.

18/ If you make people comfortable enough, they will not revolt. You can keep millions docile as you strip their rights, by giving them money, food, and entertainment.

19/ Modern people are overly complacent and lack vigilance when it comes to defending their own freedoms from government overreach.

20/ It's easier to fool a person than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Bonus

21/ Most people are fairly compassionate and have good intentions (this is good) As a result, most people deeply struggle to understand that some people, including our 'leaders', CAN have malicious or perverse intentions (this is bad).
hmmm. Many gross generalizations. Many take a known theme and then manipulate it to a libertarian perspective. For example taking:

"When sufficiently frightened, most people will not only accept authoritarianism, but demand it."

In my view a more accurate version of the above would be:

"When sufficiently frightened, people will demand strong leadership that acts in their interests".
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