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  #101  
Old 15.07.2021, 08:33
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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hmmm. Many gross generalizations. Many take a known theme and then manipulate it to a libertarian perspective. For example taking:

"When sufficiently frightened, most people will not only accept authoritarianism, but demand it."

In my view a more accurate version of the above would be:

"When sufficiently frightened, people will demand strong leadership that acts in their interests".
Or as Hermann Göring said:
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders...tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
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  #102  
Old 15.07.2021, 09:02
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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So - shrugging all those opinions that aren't identical to ours off the table as inadequate, is a way to shut down learning and progress.
Well, that's exactly what many conspiracy theorists do.

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Pancakes, you cant put everything in the same pot and say " flat earth, covid, the Shoah, GMO, waco siege, High fructose corn syrup etc, and now what ? " ..
I had already stated here, in this thread, that perhaps there is some truth to some conspiracy theories. I had also expressed that my problem with the statement in the original post here is that the guy is being too generalizing by basically saying that the majority of conspiracy theories are true with his statement that "People who are dismissed as 'conspiracy theorists' are often well researched and simply ahead of the mainstream narrative." So I commented that his statement is too generalizing, as the term "conspiracy theory" covers a very wide range of ideas, views, etc. I then later proceeded to list the top conspiracy theories, which include the flat earth theory, the Holocaust not having actually occurred, etc. So to say that "most conspiracy theories are true" or that most conspiracy theorists are correct or well-researched (or to imply it) is what is "putting everything into the same pot."

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About flat earth I have no opinion..But I can show you how the doubt starts ...for ex. it seems to be how all the photos we have from the planet earth are CGI.. not a single one that's a real photo of this planet. Sounds strange doesnt it ?

no1. You have here the celebrity astro-physicist Neil de Grasse who explains in this 20y old video, what's the shape of the earth ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTOE4Ar0Dfo

If it's oblique then pear shaped ... how come we havent photos of the earth in that shape? this shape is never thought in schoolbooks or in general...
Then, because of this confusion there was once an image released by NASA saying smthg like , voila , here is a recent photo of the earth ... What was funny on that photo is how the continents their proportions , the oceans and all that , was , exactly like a mercato map. The map that dates from the 15th century and it is considered as inexact. ( we use it but it's false) . Also there are scientists who prefer the Gall–Peters projection rectangular map that again is accepted but it's false as well. (they agree on this)
This brings us to the question, how come NASA and in general what's considered education/science are giving us the globus - the continents size, proportions and all that are inexact. Or, how come when a satellite or space station is taking a pic from the earth it is showing an inaccurate map. (and never really the pear shaped rock)
Well, there is a reason why planets, stars, etc. are spherical in shape. It's called gravity.

"A planet is round because of gravity. A planet's gravity pulls equally from all sides. Gravity pulls from the center to the edges like the spokes of a bicycle wheel. This makes the overall shape of a planet a sphere, which is a three-dimensional circle."

https://www.google.com/search?client...on+are+spheres

The earth bulges at the equator because the centrifugal force of its rotation makes it bulge outward.

There is plenty of footage of the earth, taken by the ISS, etc., that shows the earth is a sphere. The ISS has a camera that transmits live footage of the earth 24/7. But I guess some people with a conspiracy mindset will choose to negate the validity of that evidence / footage. And clearly some people prefer to ignore the evidence and the science because I guess going with the mainstream narrative (which quite often is based on science and evidence) just doesn't make them feel quite as special. I say this because studies have shown that one of the most common personality traits among conspiracy theorists is the need to feel special.

Why Do Some People Believe in Conspiracy Theories?
https://psychcentral.com/blog/conspi...people-believe

https://www.sciencealert.com/belief-...e-to-the-story
"The more people believe in conspiracy theories, the worse they perform on a critical thinking ability test," Lantian told Eric Dolan from PsyPost. "This test is characterized by an open-ended format highlighting several areas of critical thinking ability in the context of argumentation."

This conversation is becoming redundant. As I think MusicChick had said, if someone wants to believe in a conspiracy theory, that is their right. But don't push those conspiracy theories onto others when there is more evidence that goes against it than there is in support of it. And don't expect people to ignore science simply because you yourself distrust science and choose to negate it when it conveniences your cognitive biases.
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  #103  
Old 15.07.2021, 10:46
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Do you believe that the earth is flat? If not, why not?
Ok, I'll bite.

I believe the earth is flat.

Why don't you believe the earth is flat? Are you denying science?
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  #104  
Old 15.07.2021, 10:54
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Or as Hermann Göring said:
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders...tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
To quote Tony Benn:

In the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions. If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions: “What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you?” If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.
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  #105  
Old 15.07.2021, 10:59
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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Well, there is a reason why planets, stars, etc. are spherical in shape. It's called gravity.


A planet is round because of gravity.
This is a circular argument (excuse my pun).

A single particle in space has a spherical gravitational field.

A large number of particles arranged in a sphere has a spherical gravitational field because the sum of many spherical fields is a spherical field.

But an infinite number of particles arranged in an infinite plane has a directional and linear gravitational field. Do the calculation. You will be surprised.

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A planet's gravity pulls equally from all sides. Gravity pulls from the center to the edges like the spokes of a bicycle wheel.
No it doesn't gravity pulls to the centre. Gravity is always an attractive force. It always pulls to and never from.

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This makes the overall shape of a planet a sphere, which is a three-dimensional circle."[/I]
https://www.google.com/search?client...on+are+spheres

The earth bulges at the equator because the centrifugal force of its rotation makes it bulge outward.
The centrifugal force is an artefact of the coordinate system. What is real is the centripetal force.

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There is plenty of footage of the earth, taken by the ISS, etc., that shows the earth is a sphere.
An image is two dimensional and can thus not show a sphere. All it shows is that a circle was projected onto the retina of the camera.

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The ISS has a camera that transmits live footage of the earth 24/7. But I guess some people with a conspiracy mindset will choose to negate the validity of that evidence / footage. And clearly some people prefer to ignore the evidence and the science
Science?

As I have shown above, there is plenty of negation of science or at least bad science in what you wrote above.

Last edited by amogles; 15.07.2021 at 11:35.
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  #106  
Old 15.07.2021, 11:14
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

We need new theories to argue about, honestly.

Anyone anything fresh and fun?
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  #107  
Old 15.07.2021, 11:37
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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The earth bulges at the equator because the centrifugal force of its rotation makes it bulge outward.

There is plenty of footage of the earth, taken by the ISS, etc., that shows the earth is a sphere.
I hope you do not take as an offense, but discussing in these terms is as scientifical as most of the arguments you are trying to confute.
Acceleration is the derivative of velocity (i.e. change of velocity with respect to time).
Force equals mass times acceleration.

Velocity is a vector, i.e. if you move constantly at 100 km/h, but you change your direction, you are accelerating (according to physics definitions, not layman definitions).

Centrifugal forces do not exist. When you feel a centrifugal force, you are feeling exactly the opposite and your brain is tricking you: your body is trying to keep its inertia, by moving in straight line, while whatever constrain (seatbelts, chains, gravitational force) is trying to keep you in a circular motion by bending "that much" your velocity.

If you prefer, we can discuss physics in layman terms, but then most of the plane earth ideas makes sense, and science becomes only another religion, which can be as harmful as the dominant christian catholic or wahhabite sunnite thinking ...

The Earth is not -at all- a sphere.
https://www.gfz-potsdam.de/en/media-...ns-animations/
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  #108  
Old 15.07.2021, 11:37
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

Pancakes, obviously you are not reading in order to understand (not necessarily agree with) but you're just reading-scrolling thinking of 'what to reply'.

This means you're missing the point on so many things and you cant take the debate any further.

You replied again to me about 'conspiracy theories' and how some might be true but others not then that article : omg)

"Conspiracy theories are killing people.

Some conspiracy theorists pride themselves on being "critical freethinkers," but a new study showing a trend between lower critical thinking skills and increased conspiracy theory belief suggests this may not be the case.

"Conspiracy theories refer to attempts to explain the ultimate cause of an important event (social, political, climatic, etc.), by accusing a hidden coalition of perceived malicious and powerful people or organizations of having secretly planned and implemented these events," explain Paris Nanterre University psychologist Anthony Lantian and team in their paper."

So you see..even though me, amogles, musicChic evoked it , the real issue here is:
scientist 1 claimes one thing and you believe it
scientist 2 claims the opposite : you dont

if you believe the scientist 2 , sciencealert.com guys will write an article about you saying how you're killing people and how you have a low IQ... etc etc )

Is this problem that hard to understand? It's true, how because of the corp world we live in, we get to be bombed by articles like this and create a situation in which , You - either believe in what we tell you or you're a loony, low IQ..

but in reality someone is so clever, they want to erase any possibility of having an opposite view,arguments ... So if they say GMO's are good for you - the scientists agree on that , you have to believe it, is that right ?

and we totally ignore the ones (scientists) who are proving,saying,explaining the contrary. ?

How do we call this then? "The dogmas of faith"? >> the set of princleps laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true ?

Remember who was surfing on this wave for 20centuries? And how come today we allow the science to take over that lightning torch
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  #109  
Old 15.07.2021, 11:50
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I believe in spagetti bolognese.
There is no such thing (at least not in Italy).

Tom
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  #110  
Old 15.07.2021, 11:58
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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There is no such thing (at least not in Italy).

Tom
bunch of unbelievers.

may the Spaghetti Monster strike down and grate the infidels with his noodly appendage.
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  #111  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:07
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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There is no such thing (at least not in Italy).

Tom
We have on another thread been told that Italians don't have a clue about proper pizza.

Maybe they don't have a clue about proper spaghetti either.
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  #112  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:16
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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bunch of unbelievers.

may the Spaghetti Monster strike down and grate the infidels with his noodly appendage.
Pastafarian heaven at least sounds fun.

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  #113  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:18
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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There is no such thing (at least not in Italy).

Tom
Bolognese simply means of the region Bologna if I’m not mistaken. Traditionally ragu is served with tagliatelle. I must confess I enjoy it with spaghetti and also linguine on occasion
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  #114  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:39
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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This is a circular argument (excuse my pun).

A single particle in space has a spherical gravitational field.

A large number of particles arranged in a sphere has a spherical gravitational field because the sum of many spherical fields is a spherical field.

But an infinite number of particles arranged in an infinite plane has a directional and linear gravitational field. Do the calculation. You will be surprised.

No it doesn't gravity pulls to the centre from everywhere. Gravity is always an attractive force. It always pulls to and never from.
I think you're trying to generate an argument by misinterpreting or exaggerating my comments. The earth's gravity is dependent upon its mass distribution. I never said that gravity is not an attractive force, so I'm not sure why you wrote "No it doesn't gravity pulls to the centre from everywhere. Gravity is always an attractive force. It always pulls to and never from."

But the earth's gravitational field is actually irregular. (And yes, I am aware that the earth is a spheroid and not a perfect sphere).


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An image is two dimensional and can thus not show a sphere. All it shows is that a circle was projected onto the retina of the camera.



Science?

As I have shown above, there is plenty of negation of science in what you wrote above.
I think there is negation of science when your mind creates it.

Yes, an image is two-dimensional. That does not mean that the object itself, captured by that image, is two-dimensional. If you took a "selfie," would that somehow prove that you are only two-dimensional? If I took a photo of my house, does that somehow prove that the house itself is two-dimensional?

Yes, the centrifugal force is caused by the rotating frame of reference. That does not negate its existence. "A fictitious force is an apparent force that acts on all masses whose motion is described using a non-inertial frame of reference, such as a rotating reference frame." If you spin on a merry-go-round, you can still feel the spin pulling you outward, though someone observing you would not feel that force.

"The centrifugal force is very real in the non-inertial frame, and is not imaginary or fictional, but is simply non-fundamental in that it arises from the spinning motion of the frame itself. Furthermore, because of mountains, oceans, hills, canyons, etc., the earth is not really an oblate spheroid. But these deviations from a perfectly smooth oblate spheroid shape are only 0.001% of the earth's radius, so the earth has the shape to a very good approximation."

https://wtamu.edu/~cbaird/sq/2012/12...usly-a-sphere/
  #115  
Old 15.07.2021, 12:47
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

It is time for the pastafarians to start forming sects:
According to the prophet Orecchiettio, the spaghetti heretics will come to a sticky tangled end
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  #116  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:29
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I think you're trying to generate an argument by misinterpreting or exaggerating my comments.
No, you are claiming to argue science but your arguments are imprecise and unscientific.

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The earth's gravity is dependent upon its mass distribution.
And what is special about the mass distribution of the earth?

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But the earth's gravitational field is actually irregular. (And yes, I am aware that the earth is a spheroid and not a perfect sphere).
What is irregular about the earth's gravitational field?

Either the "bulge" is caused by this "centrifugal" force, or it is caused by some "irregularity" of the gravitational field, or maybe both. But those are two different things. In science you need to be precise and express yourself precisely.

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I think there is negation of science when your mind creates it.
There is a negation of science when somebody claiming to argue for the science gets their science badly wrong.

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Yes, an image is two-dimensional. That does not mean that the object itself, captured by that image, is two-dimensional. If you took a "selfie," would that somehow prove that you are only two-dimensional?
I never said anything about proof.

An image is formed by light hitting a retina.

We can have a separate discussion about the physical effects that caused the light to travel, to be distorted by a lens, and then to hit the retina in a certain manner. But we have not been having such a discussion.

We can also have a discussion about what that proves (the picture alone proves very little).

I never said the two-dimensional photo proves the thing being photographed is also two dimensional.

Again you are claiming to argue for science but you are not reading my arguments correctly.

We can have a discussion about how to prove that an object is a sphere (and what we would have to assume to do that). But I think that whatever path we chose, for that we would need further information than just a camera image.

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Yes, the centrifugal force is caused by the rotating frame of reference. That does not negate its existence. "A fictitious force is an apparent force that acts on all masses whose motion is described using a non-inertial frame of reference, such as a rotating reference frame." If you spin on a merry-go-round, you can still feel the spin pulling you outward, though someone observing you would not feel that force.
Okay, this is getting interesting.

The fact that you brought up a change in coordinate system is very good, because he question of understanding the coordinate system is very important both in arguing for and against the flat earth. I might like to come back to that later in this thread.

Anyway, the physics isn the same regardless of the coordinate system. We just switch coordinate systems to simplify calculations, not to introduce new laws of physics.

But back to what you said.

You "feel" the centrifugal force on a merry go round. What you actually feel is not the centrifugal force but the reaction to the centripetal force, caused for example by the soles of your shoes gripping the surface of the merry go round so you don't slide off.

If you were to grease the surface you would slide off the merry go round. You would not accelerate off. Thus there is no force pushing you off. There is a force keeping you on.

So far nobody has dicussed the rotation of the earth. You said we know it is a sphere because you saw a photograph that shows it is a circle. And you claimed it has an anomalous gravitational field (which you don't explain further).

Now you are saying it is also rotating and there is a "centrifugal" force acting on it. And all this because you have seen one photograph from a space station and you have muddled up almost all the physics you have mentioned.

Also, I don't see what the rotation of the earth has to do with it being flat or not. Flat bodies can rotate too.

Are you sure you are on the side of science?

For somebody who claims to have had the flat earth argument ad nauseam in the past, I was expecting you to do better than this.

Last edited by amogles; 15.07.2021 at 13:46.
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  #117  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:35
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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No, you are claiming to argue science but your arguments are imprecise and unscientific.



And what is special about the mass distribution of the earth?



What is irregular about the earth's gravitational field?

Either the "bulge" is caused by this "centrifugal" force, or it is caused by some "irregularity" of the gravitational field, or maybe both. But those are two different things. In science you need to be precise and express yourself precisely.



There is a negation of science when somebody claiming to argue for the science gets their science badly wrong.



I never said anything about proof.

An image is formed by light hitting a retina.

We can have a separate discussion about the physical effects that caused the light to travel, and then hit the retina in a certain manner. But we have not been having such a discussion.

We can also have a discussion about what that proves (the picture alone proves very little).

I never said the two-dimensional photo proves the thing being photographed is also two dimensional.

Again you are claiming to argue for science but you are not reading my arguments correctly.

We can have a discussion about how to prove than an object is a sphere. But I think for that we would need further information than just a camera image.



Okay, this is getting interesting.

You "feel" the centrifugal force on a merry go round because you are in a rotating coordinate system. What you actually feel is not the centrifugal force but the reaction to the centripetal force, caused for example by the soles of your shoes gripping the surface of the merry go round so you don't slide off.

If you were to grease the surface you would slide off the merry go round. You would not accelerate off. Thus there is no force pushing you off. There is a force keeping you on.

So far nobody has dicussed the rotation of the earth. You said we know it is a sphere because you saw a photograph that shows it is a circle. And you claimed it has an anomalous gravitational field (which you don't explain further).

Now you are saying it is also rotating and there is a "centrifugal" force acting on it. And all this because you have seen one photograph from a space station and you have muddled up almost all the physics you have mentioned.

Are you sure you are on the side of science?
You are contradicting yourself, and I find it impossible to have a rational conversation with you because of it. You say one thing and then later say the opposite. And I've noticed you doing this same thing before. It's very frustrating and makes it impossible to have a rational conversation with you and particularly one that doesn't just end up being a complete waste of my time.

I am going to add you to my ignore list again now.

Take care.
  #118  
Old 15.07.2021, 13:42
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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You are contradicting yourself, and I find it impossible to have a rational conversation with you because of it. You say one thing and then later say the opposite. And I've noticed you doing this same thing before. It's very frustrating and makes it impossible to have a rational conversation with you and particularly one that doesn't just end up being a complete waste of my time.

I am going to add you to my ignore list again now.

Take care.
I think this will be taken as proof that you don't actually believe in science and that upon having your beliefs questioned you've decided to ignore any of their arguments. Exactly like a conspiracy theorist...

Probably the right choice though!
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  #119  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:00
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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I think this will be taken as proof that you don't actually believe in science and that upon having your beliefs questioned you've decided to ignore any of their arguments. Exactly like a conspiracy theorist...

Probably the right choice though!

No, it's not proof of that at all. It's that I simply don't want to waste my time attempting to engage in a debate with someone who contradicts themselves and/or who just half the time doesn't really make any sense.

As an example, in the early stages of this thread, Amogles posted that he or she thinks that the flat earth theory is just a joke and is not intended to be taken seriously. But then I later end up in a debate with Amogles where he or she is essentially trying to defend the flat earth theory.

As another example, Amogles accused me of having said that gravity is not an attractive force -- which I never said or implied. We were also discussing gravity and Amogles asked what mass distribution has to do with anything. I shouldn't have to explain the relationship between mass and gravity.

So again, it's just frustrating... and a complete waste of my time.

To say that I don't "believe" in Science is ridiculous, in part because the majority of the books that I read are physics-related. Currently, I'm reading a book about quantum gravity by Carlo Rovelli. Speaking of which.... I'd much rather be reading that than wasting my time here, attempting to engage in a rational debate with someone who much of the time simply doesn't make much sense. I'm sorry, but spending the afternoon with some random person on the Internet essentially trying to convince me that the earth is flat is not my idea of spending my time wisely.
  #120  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:18
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Re: 20 Things I've Learned (Or Had Confirmed) About Humanity During The 'Pandemic'

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As an example, in the early stages of this thread, Amogles posted that he or she thinks that the flat earth theory is just a joke and is not intended to be taken seriously. But then I later end up in a debate with Amogles where he or she is essentially trying to defend the flat earth theory.
In other words . You are arguing a side that you actually believe in and I’m arguing my side as the devil’s advocate in a matter that is actually very difficult to defend on any level , just to highlight mistakes in your reasoning . And you are still losing the debate ?

But you claim to be a master of logic and science ?

And claim to be able to differentiate good theories from bad
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