Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 14.07.2021, 17:36
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 342
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 436 Times in 220 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Am I the only one a bit surprized at the very, very low-key general discussion about how the USA (with their faithful allies in tow) has decided to cut its losses and pull out of Afghanistan? Joe Biden prefers to talk about “happy things” over the Fourth of July holiday!

Stories like this are certainly helpful in warning against placing any trust in benevolent behaviour https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gram-departure

Don’t get me wrong. After the (historic) British and (more recent) Russian misadventures in this country, I’d mainly question why the Americans got themselves involved in the first place. My simple conclusion: the USA valued their fire power higher than common sense.

It won’t be long before we see “Saigon 2.0” re-enacted and try to ignore reports of horrendous behaviour of the Taliban. But before that happens, the UN Mission recommends, ““The best way to end harm to civilians is for peace talks to be reinvigorated in order for a negotiated settlement to be reached”.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank LtSoftDrink for this useful post:
  #2  
Old 14.07.2021, 17:39
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,843
Groaned at 243 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,097 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Well, it is good that they have left. They should have done that in 2002-2003.

And, regretfully, not everyone learns from history.

But if Viet Nam is any indication, things may not be as bad as many fear.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:00
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,572
Groaned at 284 Times in 232 Posts
Thanked 24,693 Times in 10,434 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post

It won’t be long before we see “Saigon 2.0” re-enacted and try to ignore reports of horrendous behaviour of the Taliban. But before that happens, the UN Mission recommends, ““The best way to end harm to civilians is for peace talks to be reinvigorated in order for a negotiated settlement to be reached”.
And maybe neocons would have said, it's easier to negotiate peace when you're pointing a gun at somebody. Which might have worked in Latin America or post war Europe, but doesn't seem to work in Afghanistan, or Iraq for that matter.

Now there will be peace on Taliban terms. Which is basically what there was before the whole thing started.

A complete waste of so many lives to achieve nothing.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:03
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 342
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 436 Times in 220 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Well, it is good that they have left. They should have done that in 2002-2003.

And, regretfully, not everyone learns from history.

But if Viet Nam is any indication, things may not be as bad as many fear.
Good: less clueless Americans getting killed. Bad: more Afghanis who believed fairy tales paying for their mistake.

Don’t share your optimism “things may not be as bad as many fear”. I mentioned Saigon (US embassy airlift) merely as the ultimate humiliation the USA suffered in that confrontation. If the Americans have any sense at all, they’d better close shop before the Taliban come to town.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,843
Groaned at 243 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,097 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Afghanistan the graveyard of empires.

Yer another one bites the dust.

Last edited by bowlie; 14.07.2021 at 18:20.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 342
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 436 Times in 220 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Afghanistan the graveyard of empires.

Yer another one bites the dust n
This would imply that the American Empire is on the way to the graveyard, right? Kind of discouraging to simple folk like me, who believe in democracy, nation building and other fairy tales
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:23
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,843
Groaned at 243 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,097 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
This would imply that the American Empire is on the way to the graveyard, right? Kind of discouraging to simple folk like me, who believe in democracy, nation building and other fairy tales
No, just history. In the last, century the Soviets fought and failed. Just like the Brits before them. And before them the Moguls …

Attack Afghanistan at your peril.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 14.07.2021, 18:59
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Am I the only one a bit surprized at the very, very low-key general discussion about how the USA (with their faithful allies in tow) has decided to cut its losses and pull out of Afghanistan? Joe Biden prefers to talk about “happy things” over the Fourth of July holiday!
And Trump negotiated the deal to exit on May 1st, so nobody is going to get very vocal about it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 14.07.2021, 19:11
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Baden/Zurich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 12 Times in 7 Posts
LOVELYitaly has earned some respectLOVELYitaly has earned some respect
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Feel a bit sorry for all the fellows who might have openly sided with the Western powers all these years. Not that I know if anyone did of course but time and time again the local allies have been left to fend for themselves when the Uk and USA army changes its mind and forgets it ever knew them.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 14.07.2021, 19:31
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Baselland
Posts: 342
Groaned at 8 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 436 Times in 220 Posts
LtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond reputeLtSoftDrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
And Trump negotiated the deal to exit on May 1st, so nobody is going to get very vocal about it.
Had Trump been re-elected, he wouldn't have even bothered to talk about "happy things". The US abandonment of the Kurdish allies was accomplished with even less throwaway comments.

Fail to have noticed any worth while negotiations. The US just upped and left and didn't even tell their local allies they'd turned the lights off in Bagrahm. That the Kabul govt. apparently didn't notice until after the fact does suggest they're a bit dim
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 14.07.2021, 19:49
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 1,453
Groaned at 113 Times in 73 Posts
Thanked 1,574 Times in 894 Posts
yacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond reputeyacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Hundred thousand Afghan civilians dead. Seems enough for an attack performed by an all-Saudis team...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 14.07.2021, 20:00
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 4,843
Groaned at 243 Times in 177 Posts
Thanked 6,569 Times in 3,097 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Same old, same old. Have fun!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bowlie for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 14.07.2021, 21:46
Murloc's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Bern
Posts: 507
Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 561 Times in 282 Posts
Murloc has an excellent reputationMurloc has an excellent reputationMurloc has an excellent reputationMurloc has an excellent reputation
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Now there will be peace on Taliban terms. Which is basically what there was before the whole thing started.
it might actually be worse, because they preemptively conquered the northern areas which were in control of warlords in the previous era.
So minorities might end up completely obliterated.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Murloc for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 14.07.2021, 22:50
XDr's Avatar
XDr XDr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Northeast
Posts: 128
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 80 Posts
XDr has earned the respect of manyXDr has earned the respect of manyXDr has earned the respect of many
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
it might actually be worse, because they preemptively conquered the northern areas which were in control of warlords in the previous era.
So minorities might end up completely obliterated.
Taken from a rare journalist who actually knows the area first-hand (you won't find that in any major US or European media):

The Taliban have evolved a lot since its 1996-2001 run, and now encompass Northern commanders too. https://asiatimes.com/2021/07/say-he...diplo-taliban/

Which is why the North was not conquered militarily, but mostly negotiated (obviously under duress but between local talibans and chiefs) its switch: https://asiatimes.com/2021/07/a-saig...he-hindu-kush/

If there is hope for Afghanistan in the medium term, it may come from integrating the BRI - if you call that a hope, that is: https://asiatimes.com/2021/07/new-great-game-gets-back-to-basics/
https://asiatimes.com/2021/07/chinas...h-afghanistan/

Last edited by XDr; 15.07.2021 at 00:42. Reason: original links
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank XDr for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 14.07.2021, 23:42
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11,572
Groaned at 284 Times in 232 Posts
Thanked 24,693 Times in 10,434 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
This would imply that the American Empire is on the way to the graveyard, right? Kind of discouraging to simple folk like me, who believe in democracy, nation building and other fairy tales
Maybe America as an empire building power is on its way to the graveyard.

But maybe America the empire builder is not the same as America the free nation that believes in democracy etc (including its own)

Britain used to have an empire and we used to believe the civilized world depended on us to survive and to fix its problems.

We have moved away from both that notion and from the empire itself, and I would say the change has done us more good than harm.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 15.07.2021, 00:31
XDr's Avatar
XDr XDr is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Northeast
Posts: 128
Groaned at 4 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 80 Posts
XDr has earned the respect of manyXDr has earned the respect of manyXDr has earned the respect of many
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe America as an empire building power is on its way to the graveyard.

But maybe America the empire builder is not the same as America the free nation that believes in democracy etc (including its own)

Britain used to have an empire and we used to believe the civilized world depended on us to survive and to fix its problems.

We have moved away from both that notion and from the empire itself, and I would say the change has done us more good than harm.
Well put, though Britain was lucky: She was deposed by a friendly, a rare occurrence as Graham Allison has pointed out (especially as I would quibble with his calling what we know as the cold war, a "not war"): https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...s-trap/406756/
There is also the matter of whether the former colonies/dependencies were better off for having been under British rule. Or in this case, which ones were better off and which ones were worse off. Complicated question.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank XDr for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 15.07.2021, 08:40
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Risch
Posts: 738
Groaned at 37 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 806 Times in 414 Posts
KiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond reputeKiwiSteve has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe America as an empire building power is on its way to the graveyard.

But maybe America the empire builder is not the same as America the free nation that believes in democracy etc (including its own)

Britain used to have an empire and we used to believe the civilized world depended on us to survive and to fix its problems.

We have moved away from both that notion and from the empire itself, and I would say the change has done us more good than harm.
This.

The process is painful and incomplete, the remnants of empire are everywhere and not everyone has moved on.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 15.07.2021, 09:15
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,867
Groaned at 62 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,756 Times in 1,470 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
Am I the only one a bit surprized at the very, very low-key general discussion about how the USA (with their faithful allies in tow) has decided to cut its losses and pull out of Afghanistan? Joe Biden prefers to talk about “happy things” over the Fourth of July holiday!
...
Don’t get me wrong. After the (historic) British and (more recent) Russian misadventures in this country, I’d mainly question why the Americans got themselves involved in the first place. My simple conclusion: the USA valued their fire power higher than common sense.
...
Basically, the Bush admin, married to the oil biz, had the wacky idea that a quick cheap war could get em a pipe line built there. Originally, they tried to wheel and deal with the Taliban without success. In the end they got more than what they had bargained for. Assume the Biden admin clearly sees that it is pointless to stay there, that there's less future and money in oil these days and that other potential conflicts, i.e. Taiwan, requires more resourcing. Yes! It's a pity what will become of the poor people there, especially the women and others who have sided with the allies. A nation that has grown up and been at war or in subordination since generations. But the mighty USA simply doesn't have the ability to police the whole world.
What does surprise me is that Obama continued and prolonged the stay and that it was Trump, must give him some credit, who decided and wanted to pull out and got the process rolling.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank robBob for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 15.07.2021, 14:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 8,915
Groaned at 461 Times in 344 Posts
Thanked 11,816 Times in 6,155 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Quote:
View Post
What does surprise me is that Obama continued and prolonged the stay and that it was Trump, must give him some credit, who decided and wanted to pull out and got the process rolling.
By March 2015, the number of US troops had been cut to 10k from 100k at the peak reached in 2010. The original plan was to withdraw (almost) all by the end of 2016. However that didn't happen because the situation was too fragile, which applies to today still.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 15.07.2021, 15:10
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,040
Groaned at 350 Times in 234 Posts
Thanked 16,624 Times in 5,089 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Afghanistan: misplaced trust in USA evident?

Get ready for massive flow of refugees fleeing Afghanistan. Young men and families will flee the country while the rest stay behind, forced to surrender to whatever local government assumes power. The taliban, unchecked, will grow in size, force and power, unstoppable until they implode or forces join again n another attempt to eradicate their brutal regime.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Family Reunion for Non-EU (from Afghanistan) Fariha Permits/visas/government 19 14.03.2018 04:08
Misplaced my licence, can I drive there to get it ? RuJoMa Daily life 49 17.12.2014 18:29
misplaced contract lemet Housing in general 0 09.01.2014 00:08
What are we achieving in Afghanistan? Sbrinz International affairs/politics 57 24.09.2012 00:13
Armchair Volunteering - Afghanistan sojoh International affairs/politics 0 09.03.2009 11:18


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0