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  #41  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:04
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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https://www.worldometers.info/oil/#:...ta%20per%20day.


Care to visit this website before keep posting non sense ?


Oil usage is at ATH
The importance of oil relative to world GDP today is less than it was in 72 and 79. In 72 and 79 this brought a crisis, today it wont. It might be worth checking the word "relative" you seem to struggle with it.
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  #42  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:09
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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amogles, I'm really curious, why do you say (back on the 1st page) "Is deciding to hold free elections an offensive action?" ?
This was in response to the previous posts, which I paste below in the order they appeared.

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How many countries Russia has bombed/invaded since 1945?
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Hungary 1956 to put down the Hungarian uprising, Czechoslovakia 1968 to put down the Prague Spring,
Georgia August 2008 to expel Georgians from Abkhazia & South Ossetia, Russian takeover of Crimea
from Ukraine 2014 and intervention in the Dombas & Luhansk in the same year.
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All as result of offensive actions by those states.
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Is deciding to hold free elections an offensive action?
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  #43  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:13
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

I see, thanks but why do you say "elections"? what do you mean by that word
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  #44  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:19
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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I see, thanks but why do you say "elections"? what do you mean by that word
I don't understand your question.

In the examples I cited, the governments of said countries were giving in to demands of protesters and planning to, or at least promising to, hold free elections, meaning elections of the national parliament in which any party or candidate would have been allowed to take part.

The Soviets decided such actions were going too far and sent in the tanks.
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  #45  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:20
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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I was thinking more Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 etc.

Elections that ironically would in all likelihood have returned nominally pro-Soviet majorities with just some reformative ideas. It was the Soviet reaction to these attempts that made people really start hating them.

But just the risk was too much for them apparently.
Agree, in an European context how could you hesitate to condemn those Russian interventions? At the time, push back by the USA seemed sensible. Perhaps they (and GB) should have better considered “Yalta” beforehand? Oh well, we all make mistakes – but they don’t always make history.
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  #46  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:26
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Agree, in an European context how could you hesitate to condemn those Russian interventions? At the time, push back by the USA seemed sensible. Perhaps they (and GB) should have better considered “Yalta” beforehand? Oh well, we all make mistakes – but they don’t always make history.
I think the thinking at the time was to give the Russians what they wanted, because it was a price worth paying for peace.

Only this meant deciding the fates of other nations over their heads and without giving them a say.

Maybe some racist attitudes also played a part. Eastern Europeans supposedly being less trustworthy than Western Europeans so let the Russians deal with them, seeing the Germans had just disqualified themselves and nobody else was stepping up to do the job.
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  #47  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:33
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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This is completely irrelevant to the fact that 1) they sent an invading force 2) they failed spectacularly, and continue to do so.

I also appreciate the extremely selective reading in which you take one example only (and you misinterpret it anyway) and ignore the rest.
Love this libtard way of thinking - if you apply my arguments to an exact same situation (just that I don't like it) - they become irrelevant.

LOL - they send the invading force to their own territory? Do you even read before you type?

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I was thinking more Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 etc.

Elections that ironically would in all likelihood have returned nominally pro-Soviet majorities with just some reformative ideas. It was the Soviet reaction to these attempts that made people really start hating them.

But just the risk was too much for them apparently.
And the US didn't invade France, Germany and Japan in 1945?

Shall we start listing all latin American countries? Vietnam? Korea?

carry on pls..
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  #48  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:35
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

amogles this is why to me it's confusing ...Beacuse neither Hungary or later Prague uprise were because they (the governement,or students and political parties) wanted to hold free elections, as far as I know.

Just as LtsoftDrink said it has to do with Yalta agreement and how they agreed that this part should be divided into four post-war occupation zones, controlled by U.S., British, French and Soviet military forces. Alo Berlin would also be divided into similar occupation zones.

So those countries from Eastern europe down to Romania,Bulgaria but no Yugoslavia (since it was with the allies) , were with Axis power and were in a certain 'punishment', occupation (because of the eventual surproduction of steel,armement etc)

Later on because of the cold war this was respresented how the bad Russians occupied these countries and were bad to them. As if it's a classical occupation (and it wasnt)
This was going on very well with the american war on socialism and proving how "socialism is bad bad" and they worked on just reinforcing that "wall" . And they succeeded of course
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  #49  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:38
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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And the US didn't invade France, Germany and Japan in 1945?

Shall we start listing all latin American countries? Vietnam? Korea?

carry on pls..
I don't necessarily defend those invasions. I have argued elsewhere on this forum that it wasn't as black on white as history books claim.

But at least to the defense of the Americans, it was a war and they were invading enemy territory. That is, territories of or occupied by countries that had declared war on them.

In the above examples the Russians marched into a country with which they had an alliance, who had never declared war on them or expressed even the remotest intent of invading any part of the Soviet Union or any other country for that matter.
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  #50  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:47
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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LOL - they send the invading force to their own territory? Do you even read before you type?
In fact, I do, but your grasp of details is not at the level for this conversation. At this point of time the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria was proclaimed independent and hence the trigger for the first Chechen war which was actually won by the Chechen. It was only in 1999 that Moscow brought it back to the fold.
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  #51  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:50
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Russian record on constructing nuclear plants (with or without containment vessels) is a matter of national shame.
I bet you have data to back this up and compare to other developed countries.
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  #52  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:59
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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amogles this is why to me it's confusing ...Beacuse neither Hungary or later Prague uprise were because they (the governement,or students and political parties) wanted to hold free elections, as far as I know.
I'm not sure about Prague, but in Hungary the government had already given in to many demands of the protesters, including releasing large numbers of political prisoners. The pro-Soviet prime minister of the day had just stepped down in favour of a more popular person who was also nominally a communist and pro Soviet but at the same time pro-reform and had widespread support in the population. Nagy had been expelled form the communist party and disgraced on account of his dissenting views but was then readmitted when the functionaries realized they had gone too far in treating such a popular person in this way. Nagy and his new government immediately accepted popular demands for free elections and promised they would be held shortly. He also demanded the Soviet military units withdraw from Hungary and they actually and maybe surprisingly complied with his demand.

So it all looked as if things were going to end in a civil and peaceful manner. Only then did the Soviets decide things had gone too far and they re-invaded only days after withdrawing their last units. What basically ensued was streetfights with well armed Soviet tank units fighting students with hand weapons and petrol bombs. It was a brutal defeat that cost many thousands of lives, with many other being executed in revenge repercussions and and tens of thousands fleeing the country.

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Just as LtsoftDrink said it has to do with Yalta agreement and how they agreed that this part should be divided into four post-war occupation zones, controlled by U.S., British, French and Soviet military forces. Alo Berlin would also be divided into similar occupation zones.
I think the idea was that this would be an initial occupation to restore order and get reconstruction started. I don't think Yalta was meant to be permanent. For example the Berlin Wall didn't get built until the early 1960s. Up until that point everybody was trying to pretend everything was normal.

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So those countries from Eastern europe down to Romania,Bulgaria but no Yugoslavia (since it was with the allies) , were with Axis power and were in a certain 'punishment', occupation (because of the eventual surproduction of steel,armement etc)
Poland and Czechoslovakia were never part of the axis, but they got the same punishment.

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Later on because of the cold war this was respresented how the bad Russians occupied these countries and were bad to them. As if it's a classical occupation (and it wasnt)
This was going on very well with the american war on socialism and proving how "socialism is bad bad" and they worked on just reinforcing that "wall" . And they succeeded of course
That may have played a part of course, but I don't think Communism was defeated from outside. It was defeated from within because it was based on fear and repression, and this was fairly obvious to all but the most fervent defenders of Communism. The system thus had no moral legitimacy. As soon as the repression was relaxed a bit the system collapsed.
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  #53  
Old 01.08.2021, 13:59
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Soviet universities and research were among the world's best. The Russians today are still pretty good.

My dad who is a physicist told me many years ago that if I really wanted to understand maths or physics thoroughly and in all details I needed to read a Soviet university textbook. Anything else was just skimming the surface.

One problem was that the Russians were never particularly good at converting this excellent theoretical knowledge into entrepreneurial business. Many Russian scientists and engineers emigrated for the better opportunities.
Yes sure, it's free market, people go where get paid. That was the whole idea behind dissolving USSR.

It's been 30 years since 1991 and saying "Soviet were one of the best" in 2021 becomes a broken record. I suggest you to open ICPC website and look who has been winning the most in modern history and also look at the average age of competitors.
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  #54  
Old 01.08.2021, 14:05
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

amogles, both examples Hungary and Cz's governments were with Moscow and the uprising was seen as negative and maybe being infiltrated by some circles from the faschism days (who were indeed present around and did try to reconstruct) which not necessarily mean they had their hand in these uprisings.

Both Hu and Cz were sovereign and had armies and they could've start fighting against the russian troops.
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  #55  
Old 01.08.2021, 14:15
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Georgia, Ukraine.
What's this thing with Georgia and Ukraine ? Both governments were openely killing their own people. Russia stepped in to end that non-sense.
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  #56  
Old 01.08.2021, 14:19
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

One thing is important: to see how history and events are interpreted. I've seen (or tried to see) both sides and someething in between. It is unbelievable how the Britanicca/Larousse side was since ever is creating a certan type of history with lot of nuances ...
So, what's been done by GB and then after by the USA is bringing civilisation in the world and democracy but Russia's intervention in afganistan is occupation.
I think it is very difficult to be objective anyhow we turn it
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  #57  
Old 01.08.2021, 14:20
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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One thing is important: to see how history and events are interpreted. I've seen (or tried to see) both sides and someething in between. It is unbelievable how the Britanicca/Larousse side was since ever is creating a certan type of history with lot of nuances ...
So, what's been done by GB and then after by the USA is bringing civilisation in the world and democracy but Russia's intervention in afganistan is occupation.
I think it is very difficult to be objective anyhow we turn it
Correct. History is written by winners.
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  #58  
Old 01.08.2021, 14:35
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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amogles, both examples Hungary and Cz's governments were with Moscow and the uprising was seen as negative and maybe being infiltrated by some circles from the faschism days (who were indeed present around and did try to reconstruct) which not necessarily mean they had their hand in these uprisings.

Both Hu and Cz were sovereign and had armies and they could've start fighting against the russian troops.
I have read articles arguing both sides of this argument. I believe there were many former fascists fighting on both sides. There were definitely many former fascists who became communists and this is well documented, but there were also former fascists on the side of the rebels. History is complex and applying labels often doesn't help.

For example one unintended consequence of fascism was that many Jews became anti-fascists and fought against the fascist government from the underground. When the Soviets came they welcomed these and became firm supporters, many being hired into the secret police and fast tracked for promotion because of their anti-fascist antecedents. Ironically this meant they were working hand in hand with former fascists to repress the rest of the people. This in term led to Jews appearing to be pro-Soviet and pro-repression which ignited a fresh wave of antisemitic tendencies and many of the Jewish members of the secret police were subjected to especially cruel revenge at the hands of the rebels when their offices were stormed.

As to your remark about the Hungarian army not opposing Russian troops, this is not entirely correct as there were instances of them getting involved. Also, at the time, and this was just over a decade after the end of WW2 remember, occupied countries were still very much on probation and had not yet developed well equipped armies of their own.
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Old 01.08.2021, 14:45
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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I think the thinking at the time was to give the Russians what they wanted, because it was a price worth paying for peace.

Only this meant deciding the fates of other nations over their heads and without giving them a say.

Maybe some racist attitudes also played a part. Eastern Europeans supposedly being less trustworthy than Western Europeans so let the Russians deal with them, seeing the Germans had just disqualified themselves and nobody else was stepping up to do the job.
Peace? Desperation of GB and miscalculation/naïveté of the USA's intentions regarding postwar colonial change over?
If Suez 1956 didn’t expose a few GB misconceptions about how their “special relationship” with the USA really worked, one could ask why does GB still bang on about it? Might be worth picking up the pieces of the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance (1386), where “perfidious Albion” certainly didn’t hesitate to torpedo Portuguese ambitions. Famously 1890 in Africa.
racist attitudes: no comment – but I could come back
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  #60  
Old 01.08.2021, 15:37
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

amogles, I think how your starting point is: the CCCP was bad, was created on fear and repression, they wanted to dominate in a very violent way over their people and the people around (the ones in the russian block) ...

Even you you're saying how "they invaded a country that did not declare a war or something" only to say later "yeah, it's not really an invasion since it's much more complicated than that reduction.

For ex. look at this poll.. They did a comparison, of what people thought in 1945 and 1994 and 2004 (this is in france, what the French think who which nation fought and won against the nazi Germany)
Basically the new generations think how it's the USA (well hollywood) and bit by bit the eseential is missing like who lost most lives during the 2nd World War to fight faschism.


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