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  #101  
Old 04.08.2021, 13:09
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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I went back to Yalta agreements that were done 10y before the Warszawa Pact just to recall why on the first place central europe and eastern europe with east germany,half Berlin were under the CCCP. This was done as an agreement among the three sides who were the winnners. So the soviets did not let's say invade/conquer eastern europe (that was my point).
And yet, your point is not historically accurate. By the time of the Yalta conference Churchill and Roosvelt had no choice, but to recognize the facts on the ground, i.e. that Eastern Europe WAS occupied by Soviet forces at this time AND had Kremlin installed governments in most places already.
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  #102  
Old 04.08.2021, 14:06
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Actually MusicChick I was talking about something else and I totally agree with your point. My comment went more as a reply to amogles saying how people in hungary,czechoslovakia wanted to have free elections (and things like that) and the soviets came, invaded them as if someone declaired a war to them ..
I went back to Yalta agreements that were done 10y before the Warszawa Pact just to recall why on the first place central europe and eastern europe with east germany,half Berlin were under the CCCP. This was done as an agreement among the three sides who were the winnners. So the soviets did not let's say invade/conquer eastern europe (that was my point).
You’re on very thin ground with your interpretation of “Yalta”. A quick read up on *gasp* Wikipedia might show how the USA trusted the USSR too much and ignored GB’s warnings to an unwarranted degree. Obviously, all three of them had their own agenda but the Russians never upheld their part of the bargain regarding restoration of previous governments and free elections.
Certainly the Soviets didn’t invade/conquer EE – they just popped up like mushrooms overnight after the Germans had inexplicably decamped
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  #103  
Old 04.08.2021, 14:34
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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And yet, your point is not historically accurate. By the time of the Yalta conference Churchill and Roosvelt had no choice, but to recognize the facts on the ground, i.e. that Eastern Europe WAS occupied by Soviet forces at this time AND had Kremlin installed governments in most places already.
Yes. Till 1991 - when the Russian occupants finally left CZ, our "brothers" left us a debt of 15billion CZ crowns. 1.4 only for detoxing Russian army bases with oil spilled and soaked grounds. So Germans destroyed us, paid zero reparations, Russkies did the same with a horrendous debt they made here. West knew, each time we were pawned over. Russkies get zero sympathy, West/EU is taken with a distance after negative experiences. Marshall plan would still probably been better, long term. But.

Prague is again quite filled with tovarisches, fleeing whatever.

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  #104  
Old 04.08.2021, 15:45
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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You’re on very thin ground with your interpretation of “Yalta”. A quick read up on *gasp* Wikipedia might show how the USA trusted the USSR too much and ignored GB’s warnings to an unwarranted degree. Obviously, all three of them had their own agenda but the Russians never upheld their part of the bargain regarding restoration of previous governments and free elections.
Certainly the Soviets didn’t invade/conquer EE – they just popped up like mushrooms overnight after the Germans had inexplicably decamped
Actually I'm not and I went to read the wikip. article on it to see what you saw.. If that part where it talks about churchil's letter to roosevelt about 'liquidations of opposition Poles by the Soviets' means how "well the soviets were on the territory of eastern europe so they just stayed..." then ok, be it, I can not interfere with the way you or someone else want to read and interpret history.
I thought the ones who want to go in history talks want to go deeper and exchange on different levels especially now that we see so much of hypocrisy from everywhere.

I would develop but I dont want to hurt the feelings of gaburko because I think I know where his problem is.... wish I could have MusicChick in front of me, with some barollo wine ... of course I'd be drinking and she'll be listening , ...then I could go in depth with many elements and exchange, otherwise, my idea is not to convince anyone into anything.
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  #105  
Old 04.08.2021, 16:36
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

Now just to illustrate a bit while I'm having this tab open the reaso why I say how people do tend to look in a superficial way to many things.. is shown in that example that was at the beginning of this thread, when everyone jumped fast to say "soviets invaded afganistan" "afganistaan"!

How can argue this since it's been noted as such in history text books. On the other hand I do have a real problem accepting this and wish people who dont think or see the same way like I do would help me understand it ...

So the CCCP are considered as occupators , made war to poor Afghanistan.. and in reality what bothers me is this:

While no one evoked here some elements that are cruscial is the fact how after the monarchy in Afganstan there was the Marxist movement. This was largely inspired by The Non-Aligned Movement and Nehru and for these countries this was a huge shift from very oppressed societies to modern. And the Democratic party of Afganistan that was pro-education, pro-liberty was for several years in power and had against them the radical islamists -the mujahideens.

“The emancipation of Afghan women moves quickly. There are greater opportunities for education, employment, and professional training, especially for women in the cities…. Women students outnumber men at the Universities…. The Communists legally guarantee the equal rights of women and men. More and more women hold positions in business, government, the diplomatic corps, the police, the army, and in Parliament. Women are teachers, nurses, entertainers, doctors and lawyers. Education and employment for women becomes more acceptable through much of Afghan society.”
– Deborah Ellis, Women of the Afghan War (Praeger, 2000)


"When the PDPA took power in 1978 they announced a 20-point program that called for women’s rights, the expropriation of the biggest landowners, the ending of the debts of Afghanistan’s 11 million peasants, equality between Afghanistan’s many peoples, universal education for both sexes in their native languages, aid to small businesses, and the extension of the state owned sector. Women’s gains included legal equality, guaranteed education, a cap on the bride price, and the outlawing of polygamy. This included a literacy drive largely aimed at educating young girls. Ninety-nine percent of Afghan women were illiterate at the outset of the PDPA led revolution and within a decade 1.5 million people passed literacy exams.

By the late 1980s 40% of the doctors in Afghanistan were women, 65% of the students at Kabul University were women, and secular family courts, sometimes presided over by women, had replaced the Islamic sharia courts of the mullahs. "

So what we have here is the soviet occupation, like some soviet female teachers teaching at uni

https://i.postimg.cc/DwTB30kF/Screen...t-16-13-22.png

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/60/ac/8e/6...67dea094a3.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/nhW5bZk1/Screen...t-16-20-17.png


And in 1978 they Afganistan USSSR established a treaty. The treaty established was a 20-year period of “friendship and cooperation” between the Soviet Union and Afghanistan.

During this time the Soviets did not exploit the afghan people using them as cheap work force, did not open the poppy seed fields and make them work there then start a traffic or just profit out of the opium alkaloids.. did not surpress any ethnicity,etc ... on contrary..
https://i.postimg.cc/fyTy4xzp/Screen...t-16-25-16.png
https://i.postimg.cc/vmrZcPDC/Screen...t-16-25-23.png

Then you have the CIA coup and Reagan who announced how "We're supporting the mujahideens" , went into a war and obtained in the end what they wanted. The Talibans finally won, women back in burkhas, no school, no freedom, can not leave home without a male, it is allowed stoning, sale of people, and of course poppy seeds.

The catch is at how is this presented to us by the history/media... Forgetting one important thing. There was the marxist movement that had nothing to with oppression or dominance, or invading, .. on contrary the princip itself is sharing and helping, exchanging goods (this is what the non-aligement movement did)

If some of you remember, ..what happened after the 2WW was the fact how the big colonial powers lost their colonies. By losing their colonies, these uniting and creating a different type of economy,even as I said exchange.. (no money involved, no profit, no speculations, no exploit) the "horror" And many former diplomats, industrials when they tell things in their books,interviews etc. are recalling this "we wanted to stop that free exchange marxist thing"! and get our colonies back.in of course another form

btw, How is this invasion (with the marxists) and how it is liberation (mujahideens, taliban) I still am trying to learn.
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  #106  
Old 04.08.2021, 17:35
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Just been contacted by Russian friends. They're desperate to get out. Not for a life in the prosperous west, but happy to go to non-EU Balkan states. Repression is increasing.
Come on. I am Russian, what kind of repressions are we talking about? Your friends use classic dissident rhetoric in the context of the looking for a better life. But there is a fact: Russia has never been a Disneyland to entertain hopes for a pro-European wealthy life. I may only suggest your friends to learn languages instead of 'kitchen holy wars' against their own country. And please warn them that anyway it's always a bit tricky to say that you're Russian abroad there's always bench of opportunities that people may hate you just because your president is Putin (no matter who you voted for) and you kicked asses during the WW2 though no any doubts you're just a Soviet occupant and aggressor
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  #107  
Old 04.08.2021, 17:46
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

I suspect we won’t get very far if you refuse to accept Russian actions before, during and after WW II specifically regarding EE. That the other Allies weren’t angels either is w/o doubt. The point is, Russia ignored previously signed off agreements and wasn’t/couldn’t be challenged at the time.
That exponents of the EE countries concerned still harbour resentment against Russians (and other Allies, who cares about the Germans) is IMHO very understandable. Think GB/F/USA in terms of colonies and local population and yes, Australia seems to have a few issues too.
To avoid TLR, won’t go into your remarks about Afghanistan - except: don’t go there! Whether metaphorically or physically. You have to be crazy - as at least the Brits, Russians and Americans have proved within recent history.
Perhaps you should try to understand how essentially tribal societies work …
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  #108  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:30
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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From wiki
  • They only shut down the last reactors at Chrenobyl in 2000!!
  • By 1980, NIKIET realized after completing a confidential study that accidents with the RBMK were likely even during normal operation, but no action was taken to correct the RBMK's flaws.
  • Instead, manuals were revised, which was believed to be enough to ensure safe operation as long as they were followed closely
  • However, the manuals were vague and Soviet power plant staff already had a habit of not following rules

And that's the point - no one in her/his right mind would trust the Chinese or the Russians with precise equipment where failure could have catastrophic consequences - because they have a habit of half-assing, lying and changing the goalposts - the last one you seem to do a lot of yourself when caught out. Neither country has any business calling itself world class.
Hey mate, your point is completely void, as



https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...eactor-exports

Russia is not the same as USSR, its a different country.

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That's why when the Chinese plant at Taishan (which was built by EDF - a French company) started to have trouble the French engineers informed the Americans - not to embarass the Chinese but because transparency is critical and if the thing goes critical then it's an international incident - at best.
Surely there is enough experts in the industry to make a professional assessment.

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pres...mental-concern

Surely EDF has presence at IAEA and can provide relevant information to force the shutdown. It hasnt happened yet.
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  #109  
Old 05.08.2021, 01:04
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Come on. I am Russian, what kind of repressions are we talking about? Your friends use classic dissident rhetoric in the context of the looking for a better life.
His imaginary friends that probably talk to him in Esperanto.
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  #110  
Old 05.08.2021, 12:09
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Hey mate, your point is completely void, as

https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...eactor-exports

Russia is not the same as USSR, its a different country.
From your very article -
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Russia’s nuclear programme has endured for two main reasons. Its designs are cheap, and Rosatom enjoys the backing of the state,
Exactly the same cheap shit approach that both the Russians and Chinese are infamous for and led to both the Chernobyl disaster and the recent Taishan incident. No change whatsoever.

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Surely there is enough experts in the industry to make a professional assessment.

https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pres...mental-concern

Surely EDF has presence at IAEA and can provide relevant information to force the shutdown. It hasnt happened yet.
What now ? It was shut down 7 days ago.

The attitude you display is exactly why no one trusts Russians or Chinese with important stuff - lie and divert until proven wrong.
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  #111  
Old 05.08.2021, 14:18
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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The attitude you display is exactly why no one trusts Russians or Chinese with important stuff - lie and divert until proven wrong.
You need to understand one thing, money do not flow there where there is no trust. This is a fundamental rule of capital markets.
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  #112  
Old 05.08.2021, 17:23
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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You need to understand one thing, money do not flow there where there is no trust. This is a fundamental rule of capital markets.
How do you justify paying ransom then? That's pretty much the epitome for lack of trust.
Likewise drug trafficking.

Money flows if the profit margin warrants the risk.
The higher the risk the higher the profit margin (or another/additional incentive, like freeing your beloved ones in the case of paying ransom) needs to be. That's all. With that given where's a will there's a way.
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  #113  
Old 05.08.2021, 17:52
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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How do you justify paying ransom then? That's pretty much the epitome for lack of trust.
Likewise drug trafficking.

Money flows if the profit margin warrants the risk.
The higher the risk the higher the profit margin (or another/additional incentive, like freeing your beloved ones in the case of paying ransom) needs to be. That's all. With that given where's a will there's a way.
Valid point, but I'm not talking about illegal activities.

Good luck buying a nuclear reactor on a black market.
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  #114  
Old 05.08.2021, 18:23
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Valid point, but I'm not talking about illegal activities.
Good luck buying a nuclear reactor on a black market.
Отец, how about corruption, lack of accountability and transparency? I know these ailments are afflicting many countries, but Russia is not a paragon of governance or environment protection either.
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  #115  
Old 05.08.2021, 19:40
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Отец, how about corruption, lack of accountability and transparency? I know these ailments are afflicting many countries, but Russia is not a paragon of governance or environment protection either.
corruption, lack of accountability and transparency - all there for people who run the country, not arguing against that.

however, surely when a country sells a contract to build a nuclear reactor, train personnel and support it for 10+ years there are various lawyer companies involved and often legal jurisdiction is outside of Russia.

Russia is not a paragon governance or environment protection - true, but yet they managed to build and maintain lots of oil/gas pipelines to the West (including under water) and didn't really have any substantial issues there.



I bet if Russia was replaced by the US, no one would even consider to object here, but yet they have many stories like these in history:

Quote:
Hinkley groundwater contamination

From 1952 to 1966, Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) dumped about 370 million gallons (1,400 million litres) of chromium-tainted wastewater into unlined wastewater spreading ponds around the town of Hinkley, California, located in the Mojave Desert (about 120 miles north-northeast of Los Angeles).[1][2]

PG&E used chromium 6, or hexavalent chromium (a cheap and efficient rust suppressor), in its compressor station for natural-gas transmission pipelines.[1]:[3] Hexavalent-chromium compounds are genotoxic carcinogens.

In 1993, legal clerk Erin Brockovich began an investigation into the health impacts of the contamination. A class-action lawsuit about the contamination was settled in 1996 for $333 million. In 2008, PG&E settled the last of the cases involved with the Hinkley claims. Since then, the town's population has dwindled to the point that in 2016 The New York Times described Hinkley as having slowly become a ghost town.
Not to say about this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nts_by_country

No one is denying Chernobyl was a disaster, so was USSR.

Last edited by otec; 05.08.2021 at 20:51.
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  #116  
Old 05.08.2021, 22:33
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Valid point, but I'm not talking about illegal activities.

Good luck buying a nuclear reactor on a black market.
Hehe, you have no idea, young man(?), how black I can get once I've set my mind to it.
Even a black hole could learn lots and lots.

Come to think of it, what's the petition against racist interstellar objects called?
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  #117  
Old 05.08.2021, 22:36
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

Did Russia pay the compensation for Yukos takeover? Nope. Remember Magnitsky as well.
And the environmental track record of USSR and now Russia doesn't start or stop at Chernobyl either. Mayak? It is still processing the fuel, isn't it? Norylsk? Nuclear submarines still rotting on sea bottoms?
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  #118  
Old 06.08.2021, 08:19
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Re: Russia today - rogue state, a thinly disguised Soviet Union, SPECTRE or what ?

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Did Russia pay the compensation for Yukos takeover?
What exactly they need to compensate for? As far as I know the case is still in trial at the Netherlands highest court.

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Nope. Remember Magnitsky as well.
And the environmental track record of USSR and now Russia doesn't start or stop at Chernobyl either. Mayak? It is still processing the fuel, isn't it? Norylsk? Nuclear submarines still rotting on sea bottoms?
All valid events, but nothing to do with Russian civil nuclear industry that is one the best in the world right now.

Last edited by otec; 06.08.2021 at 11:19.
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