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  #21  
Old 04.10.2021, 14:58
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I take this for granted. But, when bad people fight each other in equal terms, their numbers go down a bit and they harm less the whole economy. In contrast, when bad people agree to do business and keep everything quiet, we lose more because they thrive even more and take a larger piece of the economy cake.
You mean like that „accident“ in Italy last weekend killing one of the richest Romanians? Yeah, might actually lower corruption in South East Europe for an hour or two…
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  #22  
Old 04.10.2021, 15:18
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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You mean like that „accident“ in Italy last weekend killing one of the richest Romanians? Yeah, might actually lower corruption in South East Europe for an hour or two…
Forgot the caveat that the competition is good provided it is not violent. Dismembered bodies and charred remains are not good. I know it well.
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  #23  
Old 05.10.2021, 00:07
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Forgot the caveat that the competition is good provided it is not violent. Dismembered bodies and charred remains are not good. I know it well.

This happens when you can afford a private plane but not a private pilot....

Obviously I don't know what happened there, but to quote another EFer, billionaires' fatal accidents with helicopters and planes are very unlikely to happen naturally...reminds me of the Czech billionaire who dies at the beginning of the year in a helicopter crash....less oligarchs....not many people care.
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  #24  
Old 05.10.2021, 06:25
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Also, a really big effect of these reveltations is going to be a lot of political pressure on the Tory party to investigate donations from dubious sources named in the panama papers, because there is very little chance that the Tories (those directly involved) did not know that at least some of these payments were questionable, and either ignored the warning signs or purposefully did not ask too many questions. I imagine Labour are going to have a field day with it.
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  #25  
Old 05.10.2021, 09:12
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Well, simply put: any news?

The leak is celebrated as something bigger than panama papers... but at least so far isnt. All it showed is that politically exposed people use shell companies to do their business. The articles claim its because they want to hide their money, which I am sure is in many cases true - pretty sure the Czech president didn't want people to discuss his multimillion EUR villa in the south of France a week before the elections. What is also true is that it can be used to avoid taxes - both legally and illegally.

What all those articles dont mention: Since the 2008 crisis and even more so since the panama papers have banks ramped up their compliance and AML teams. The reputational damage with political customers is bigger than the money they make on them - so they dont accept them as clients anymore. So many PEPs basically have to hide behind a shell as no western bank would do business with a known associate of Putin or a member of the Alijev family... according to the articles did 600 journalists around the world work on the data - for that amount of work is the scandal really not that scandalous...
No news at all, rich people use sophisticated schemes to cut down on tax.

Exactly same as double Irish with a Dutch sandwich that Apple and Google has been doing for years and profited insanely.
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  #26  
Old 05.10.2021, 09:29
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Yeah, but... the ICIJ has a bit of a reputation to be better than that. Its essentially a collective of newspapers and channels that claim they want quality journalism. And I believe them. I guess that data is a huge trove of information for many stories in the future... but it just lacks that surprise and quality of the scandal the panama papers produced. Or in other words: if there really were 600 people digging through it is it surprisingly uneventful. The King of Jordan not advertising what property he buys with his real name? Hardly a shocker... the law firm once founded by the Cypriot president provides help with shell companies? In Cyprus? No way! (isnt that the place that buys you the cheapes EU passport with cash?)...

Ok, so Tony Blair bought an offshore shell company which owned property in London. So by buying the shell instead of the property directly he avoided paying property tax. Well, thats a loophole somebody should look into, but not comparable with the fun the Mossack Fonseca stuff provided...
As you write, there is a lot of material for future stories so it is rather early to conclude it lacks that surprise and quality of the scandal the Panama papers produced.
Some names have shown up but with not much detail like Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund, Berlusconi, John Dalli, Former Maltese Minister and EU Commissioner and many more that may contain surprises.
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  #27  
Old 05.10.2021, 09:32
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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having had a few billionaire clients, i can tell you than some want to push right to the lines of what is permissible by law. some into they greyzone beyond that. and others are seriously dodgy people who I would put money on are criminals.
So you didn't encounter a billionaire just willing to pay the fair share?
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  #28  
Old 05.10.2021, 10:34
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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So you didn't encounter a billionaire just willing to pay the fair share?
Paying taxes is for the plebs...
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  #29  
Old 05.10.2021, 11:15
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Re: The Pandora Papers

The state just squanders the money anyway - and they might need it themselves down the road.
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  #30  
Old 05.10.2021, 13:18
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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As you write, there is a lot of material for future stories so it is rather early to conclude it lacks that surprise and quality of the scandal the Panama papers produced.
Some names have shown up but with not much detail like Dominique Strauss-Kahn, former Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund, Berlusconi, John Dalli, Former Maltese Minister and EU Commissioner and many more that may contain surprises.
DSK, Berlusconi and some guy from Malta have offshore money and are "potentially" corrupt? Who would have thought that!
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  #31  
Old 05.10.2021, 14:01
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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DSK, Berlusconi and some guy from Malta have offshore money and are "potentially" corrupt? Who would have thought that!
Thinking is not the same as documentary evidence.
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  #32  
Old 05.10.2021, 15:34
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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No news at all, rich people use sophisticated schemes to cut down on tax.

Exactly same as double Irish with a Dutch sandwich that Apple and Google has been doing for years and profited insanely.
It's not only about rich people. Let's be honest and admit it. Paying taxes is for chumps.

Nobody likes to pay taxes, it's just most people cannot avoid taxes. Given the choice to pay or not, the great majority would opt out.
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  #33  
Old 05.10.2021, 15:54
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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It's not only about rich people. Let's be honest and admit it. Paying taxes is for chumps.

Nobody likes to pay taxes, it's just most people cannot avoid taxes. Given the choice to pay or not, the great majority would opt out.
This is a ratjher daft post, because any grown adult knows that without paying any taxes, ie: opting out completely, there is no society as we know it. So, in order to have all the nice things we take for granted to keep us clean and safe I will gladly pay my reasonable share of taxes.
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  #34  
Old 05.10.2021, 17:44
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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because any grown adult knows that without paying any taxes, ie: opting out completely, there is no society as we know it.
Replace "any" with "a few" and "knows" with "believe" in order to improve accuracy.

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So, in order to have all the nice things we take for granted to keep us clean and safe I will gladly pay my reasonable share of taxes.
Good for you. I would rather pay for what I use and prefer that the tax money I pay is not squandered by corrupt bureaucrats. Now, this is hard to accomplish, completely opting out is not a possibility. The only choice I have is to minimize the amount of tax I pay.
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  #35  
Old 05.10.2021, 17:56
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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This is a ratjher daft post, because any grown adult knows that without paying any taxes, ie: opting out completely, there is no society as we know it. So, in order to have all the nice things we take for granted to keep us clean and safe I will gladly pay my reasonable share of taxes.
I'm very happy for you to do that.

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Good for you. I would rather pay for what I use and prefer that the tax money I pay is not squandered by corrupt bureaucrats.
Fortunately, we live in a country where, by and large, bureaucrats and politicians are not corrupt. So it's fine for you to pay your taxes without feeling unhappy about it.

However, I believe it is a citizens duty to minimise the tax they pay by all legal means.
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  #36  
Old 05.10.2021, 19:22
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Cui bono?
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  #37  
Old 05.10.2021, 20:41
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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It's not only about rich people. Let's be honest and admit it. Paying taxes is for chumps.

Nobody likes to pay taxes, it's just most people cannot avoid taxes. Given the choice to pay or not, the great majority would opt out.
most rich people can avoid paying taxes
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  #38  
Old 05.10.2021, 21:11
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Fortunately, we live in a country where, by and large, bureaucrats and politicians are not corrupt. So it's fine for you to pay your taxes without feeling unhappy about it.

However, I believe it is a citizens duty to minimise the tax they pay by all legal means.
That may very well depend on one's definition of corruption.

Every Swiss taxpayer literally has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to come clean with the tax records and payments using what's called "straflose Selbstanzeige", self-disclosure without penalty. For those who qualify the tax will be calulated for up to ten years back, with interest added on top, but there will be no fine or other form of punishment. Every additional such self-disclosure will be fined with 20% of the evaded tax. If the self-declaration takes place as part of an inheritance the tax is calculated only up to three years back only.

One could easily argue that this is an outright invitation for tax evasion as the "no jail for you" card is built-in. While it may be economically beneficial, the existence of such an escape route is at least morally questionable and as such uncomfortably close to corruption.
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  #39  
Old 05.10.2021, 21:50
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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DSK, Berlusconi and some guy from Malta have offshore money and are "potentially" corrupt? Who would have thought that!
I guess you are forgetting Bernard Tapie. Or at least the connections he had with Lagarde, ahhh the good old times!
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  #40  
Old 06.10.2021, 10:14
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I guess you are forgetting Bernard Tapie. Or at least the connections he had with Lagarde, ahhh the good old times!
Ahh, good old times when there were no "papers" leaked to the public, no nothing and we all lived in total oblivion.

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However, I believe it is a citizens duty to minimise the tax they pay by all legal means.
All those legal means are in fact a few legal deductions one can do and they don't make much of a difference for some. But in CH taxes are relatively low, don't see why people complain.....it could be much worse, I've been there.

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Fortunately, we live in a country where, by and large, bureaucrats and politicians are not corrupt. So it's fine for you to pay your taxes without feeling unhappy about it.
Yeah, plus that.

Last edited by greenmount; 06.10.2021 at 10:28.
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