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Old 03.10.2021, 19:28
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The Pandora Papers

Here:

https://www.icij.org/investigations/...vens-offshore/


Hypocrisy all around: "Do as I say, not as I do."

And between all: Swiss bankers and consultants doing what they do ;-)
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Old 03.10.2021, 20:31
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Out of self-interest, those with the power to stop this kind of chicanery, won't.
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Old 03.10.2021, 23:35
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Re: The Pandora Papers

This focuses on Switzerland.
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Old 04.10.2021, 06:45
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Here:

https://www.icij.org/investigations/...vens-offshore/


Hypocrisy all around: "Do as I say, not as I do."

And between all: Swiss bankers and consultants doing what they do ;-)
Zero surprise on any of this, we all know it happens it's just rare we see actual evidence on it. Hopefully the release of these papers will cause a lot of pressure and embarrassment, at least within the more liberal Western democracies, to close the tax loopholes that make the rich richer with almost no effort.
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Old 04.10.2021, 07:54
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Thank God, my name is not mentioned.
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Old 04.10.2021, 08:57
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Re: The Pandora Papers

I think the interesting stuff here is the indication of corruption - like Putin's ex-lover, or the Azerbaijani president.
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Old 04.10.2021, 09:13
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I think the interesting stuff here is the indication of corruption - like Putin's ex-lover

Who? Trump?
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Old 04.10.2021, 10:18
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Well, simply put: any news?

The leak is celebrated as something bigger than panama papers... but at least so far isnt. All it showed is that politically exposed people use shell companies to do their business. The articles claim its because they want to hide their money, which I am sure is in many cases true - pretty sure the Czech president didn't want people to discuss his multimillion EUR villa in the south of France a week before the elections. What is also true is that it can be used to avoid taxes - both legally and illegally.

What all those articles dont mention: Since the 2008 crisis and even more so since the panama papers have banks ramped up their compliance and AML teams. The reputational damage with political customers is bigger than the money they make on them - so they dont accept them as clients anymore. So many PEPs basically have to hide behind a shell as no western bank would do business with a known associate of Putin or a member of the Alijev family... according to the articles did 600 journalists around the world work on the data - for that amount of work is the scandal really not that scandalous...
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Old 04.10.2021, 11:24
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Re: The Pandora Papers

so the 'news' is that rich/famous people use companies for transactions to maintain privacy? i guess it is good that they investigated this, otherwise we would have never suspected!
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Old 04.10.2021, 12:07
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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so the 'news' is that rich/famous people use companies for transactions to maintain privacy? I guess it is good that they investigated this, otherwise we would have never suspected south dakota!
fify
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Old 04.10.2021, 12:38
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Well, simply put: any news?

The leak is celebrated as something bigger than panama papers... but at least so far isnt. All it showed is that politically exposed people use shell companies to do their business. The articles claim its because they want to hide their money, which I am sure is in many cases true - pretty sure the Czech president didn't want people to discuss his multimillion EUR villa in the south of France a week before the elections. What is also true is that it can be used to avoid taxes - both legally and illegally.

What all those articles dont mention: Since the 2008 crisis and even more so since the panama papers have banks ramped up their compliance and AML teams. The reputational damage with political customers is bigger than the money they make on them - so they dont accept them as clients anymore. So many PEPs basically have to hide behind a shell as no western bank would do business with a known associate of Putin or a member of the Alijev family... according to the articles did 600 journalists around the world work on the data - for that amount of work is the scandal really not that scandalous...
I guess it's politics as usual. Use anything that comes out in the new to score the most possible jabs to your opponent.

A concrete case, Spain Vs. Cataluņa. https://english.elpais.com/usa/2021-...n-andorra.html

Editors chose to use the name of an ex-footballer and ex-coach from Barcelona that was found in the Pandora papers for the headline. So, Barcelona people don't pay tax, bad people, first jab. Later you read about how the guy donated to the ship rescuing immigrants in the Mediterranean....another jab. In the article body you may read everything was 'legal', there was a tax amnesty that allowed to regularize previously undeclared income with a flat rate.

Almost lost in the text you'll find the names of a few politicians from all flavors mentioned for tax evasion and tax minimization. But, that's neither interesting for local politics neither sells newspaper subscriptions.

I guess this is the story. Some information which may be interesting or not arises. Somehow, this is used for local politics. As you mentioned, it may have or not an effect in Czech elections, we'll see.
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Old 04.10.2021, 12:49
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I guess it's politics as usual. Use anything that comes out in the new to score the most possible jabs to your opponent.

A concrete case, Spain Vs. Cataluņa. https://english.elpais.com/usa/2021-...n-andorra.html

Editors chose to use the name of an ex-footballer and ex-coach from Barcelona that was found in the Pandora papers for the headline. So, Barcelona people don't pay tax, bad people, first jab. Later you read about how the guy donated to the ship rescuing immigrants in the Mediterranean....another jab. In the article body you may read everything was 'legal', there was a tax amnesty that allowed to regularize previously undeclared income with a flat rate.

Almost lost in the text you'll find the names of a few politicians from all flavors mentioned for tax evasion and tax minimization. But, that's neither interesting for local politics neither sells newspaper subscriptions.

I guess this is the story. Some information which may be interesting or not arises. Somehow, this is used for local politics. As you mentioned, it may have or not an effect in Czech elections, we'll see.
Yeah, but... the ICIJ has a bit of a reputation to be better than that. Its essentially a collective of newspapers and channels that claim they want quality journalism. And I believe them. I guess that data is a huge trove of information for many stories in the future... but it just lacks that surprise and quality of the scandal the panama papers produced. Or in other words: if there really were 600 people digging through it is it surprisingly uneventful. The King of Jordan not advertising what property he buys with his real name? Hardly a shocker... the law firm once founded by the Cypriot president provides help with shell companies? In Cyprus? No way! (isnt that the place that buys you the cheapes EU passport with cash?)...

Ok, so Tony Blair bought an offshore shell company which owned property in London. So by buying the shell instead of the property directly he avoided paying property tax. Well, thats a loophole somebody should look into, but not comparable with the fun the Mossack Fonseca stuff provided...
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Old 04.10.2021, 13:00
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Yeah, but... the ICIJ has a bit of a reputation to be better than that. Its essentially a collective of newspapers and channels that claim they want quality journalism. And I believe them. I guess that data is a huge trove of information for many stories in the future... but it just lacks that surprise and quality of the scandal the panama papers produced. Or in other words: if there really were 600 people digging through it is it surprisingly uneventful. The King of Jordan not advertising what property he buys with his real name? Hardly a shocker... the law firm once founded by the Cypriot president provides help with shell companies? In Cyprus? No way! (isnt that the place that buys you the cheapes EU passport with cash?)...

Ok, so Tony Blair bought an offshore shell company which owned property in London. So by buying the shell instead of the property directly he avoided paying property tax. Well, thats a loophole somebody should look into, but not comparable with the fun the Mossack Fonseca stuff provided...
If I were an editor I'd milk the cow as long as possible, 2-3 weeks? So, release little by little the names and facts. Anyway, the info is published but the newspaper gets more income to survive.

Or simply there's nothing there, also feasible. Tell you in a couple weeks
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Old 04.10.2021, 13:43
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Re: The Pandora Papers

I remember Jimmy Carr being caught up in the Panama papers scandal, when that broke years ago.

What I remember thinking is this (and I'd appreciate some thoughts on it, but please don't blast me for being naive - I'm upfront about the fact that I have no idea how the world of international finance works):
Surely, if you're a billionaire, you're not actively involved in the day-to-day intricacies of how your money is managed. Don't billionaires tend to have money people to handle that sort of thing? And then it would seem that the job of those money experts is to maximise your returns, minimise costs, and (presumably) stay within the boundaries of the law/s in whichever country/ies you operate.

In which case, my question is: isn't the real problem that the laws allow this sort of tax-dodging behaviour? In fact can it be called tax-dodging if you're not breaking any laws, rather you're simply taking advantage of laws that are worded poorly enough to allow their exploitation by people shrewd enough to have researched how to do it?

These investigations seem publicised with the intent to simply stir outrage at the fact that rich people are rich
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Old 04.10.2021, 13:50
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I remember Jimmy Carr being caught up in the Panama papers scandal, when that broke years ago.

What I remember thinking is this (and I'd appreciate some thoughts on it, but please don't blast me for being naive - I'm upfront about the fact that I have no idea how the world of international finance works):
Surely, if you're a billionaire, you're not actively involved in the day-to-day intricacies of how your money is managed. Don't billionaires tend to have money people to handle that sort of thing? And then it would seem that the job of those money experts is to maximise your returns, minimise costs, and (presumably) stay within the boundaries of the law/s in whichever country/ies you operate.

In which case, my question is: isn't the real problem that the laws allow this sort of tax-dodging behaviour? In fact can it be called tax-dodging if you're not breaking any laws, rather you're simply taking advantage of laws that are worded poorly enough to allow their exploitation by people shrewd enough to have researched how to do it?

These investigations seem publicised with the intent to simply stir outrage at the fact that rich people are rich
1) Google the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

2) In 'most' cases it doesn't matter who handles your finances, you should know what is happening with your money and are generally held ultimately responsible for how it is managed and used. A lot of these leaks involve significant individual transactions using shell companies etc that will have been knowingly used to avoid tax.

3) These leaks expose the hypocrisy of political persons and celebrities (etc) who often preach to the public about how they should pay their taxes and/or do good in the world, when they are at the same time using legal loopholes to avoid contributing their fair share of taxes to society. It's not a legal issue, it's a moral one.

Leaks like this allow people to put pressure on those who govern us, or who represent the elite, to behave in a more fair manner that is more beneficial to society and that represents how the vast majority of us have to conduct our financial lives.
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Old 04.10.2021, 13:54
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I remember Jimmy Carr being caught up in the Panama papers scandal, when that broke years ago.

What I remember thinking is this (and I'd appreciate some thoughts on it, but please don't blast me for being naive - I'm upfront about the fact that I have no idea how the world of international finance works):
Surely, if you're a billionaire, you're not actively involved in the day-to-day intricacies of how your money is managed. Don't billionaires tend to have money people to handle that sort of thing? And then it would seem that the job of those money experts is to maximise your returns, minimise costs, and (presumably) stay within the boundaries of the law/s in whichever country/ies you operate.

In which case, my question is: isn't the real problem that the laws allow this sort of tax-dodging behaviour? In fact can it be called tax-dodging if you're not breaking any laws, rather you're simply taking advantage of laws that are worded poorly enough to allow their exploitation by people shrewd enough to have researched how to do it?

These investigations seem publicised with the intent to simply stir outrage at the fact that rich people are rich
yes. billionaires have people to manage their money for them.

there is a distinction between legal tax minimization: which is called tax avoidance (encompasses everything from using ISAs, to exploiting loopholes in tax law) and illegal tax minimiztion: which is called tax evasion (illegal evasion of tax e.g. by under-declaration, hiding, false reporting). the really rich and/or connected just lobby to change laws in their favour.

having had a few billionaire clients, i can tell you than some want to push right to the lines of what is permissible by law. some into they greyzone beyond that. and others are seriously dodgy people who I would put money on are criminals.
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:03
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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1) Google the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

2) In 'most' cases it doesn't matter who handles your finances, you should know what is happening with your money and are generally held ultimately responsible for how it is managed and used. A lot of these leaks involve significant individual transactions using shell companies etc that will have been knowingly used to avoid tax.

3) These leaks expose the hypocrisy of political persons and celebrities (etc) who often preach to the public about how they should pay their taxed and/or do good in the world, when they are at the same time using legal loopholes to avoid contributing their fair share of taxes to society. It's not a legal issue, it's a moral one.

Leaks like this allow people to put pressure on those who govern us, or who represent the elite, to behave in a more fair manner that is more beneficial to society and that represents how the vast majority of us have to conduct our financial lives.
Concerning 3, this is one important issue. Celebrities donating to charity to get the photo when in reality all possible legal tools are used to minimize the tax amount (tax avoidance). Maybe skip the the consulting fees and pay tax as other people, that's an option too.

This is interesting because high earners get deals we don't get like tax amnesty: declare all undeclared income of past years for a flat rate lower than the effective one. Let's say I should have paid 15% as everyone else, but don't pay for 5 years, and authorities offer the chance to declare the past income and only pay 10% tax. Authorities don't waste money in prosecutions, it's an incentive to declare hidden income, and government get the tax. But, at the end of the day the high earner got a 10% rate when all people got the 15%.......and then we get condescending talk on helping others in the news, etc.
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:12
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Re: The Pandora Papers

Interesting to know would be if this trove of documents was, in some way, filtered by those who collected it together, before passing it on to the ICIJ. That might reveal something about those behind the "leak" and their motives. Those who run the "service firms" from which the leaked data is, in part, derived will notice any significant omissions and, hopefully, correct the public record with their own "leaks".
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:14
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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I remember Jimmy Carr being caught up in the Panama papers scandal, when that broke years ago.

What I remember thinking is this (and I'd appreciate some thoughts on it, but please don't blast me for being naive - I'm upfront about the fact that I have no idea how the world of international finance works):
Surely, if you're a billionaire, you're not actively involved in the day-to-day intricacies of how your money is managed. Don't billionaires tend to have money people to handle that sort of thing? And then it would seem that the job of those money experts is to maximise your returns, minimise costs, and (presumably) stay within the boundaries of the law/s in whichever country/ies you operate.

In which case, my question is: isn't the real problem that the laws allow this sort of tax-dodging behaviour? In fact can it be called tax-dodging if you're not breaking any laws, rather you're simply taking advantage of laws that are worded poorly enough to allow their exploitation by people shrewd enough to have researched how to do it?

These investigations seem publicised with the intent to simply stir outrage at the fact that rich people are rich
My impression is that they were stirring outrage against public figures who speak out against corruption and unfair financial practices but have their own noses in the trough.
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Old 04.10.2021, 14:29
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Re: The Pandora Papers

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Interesting to know would be if this trove of documents was, in some way, filtered by those who collected it together, before passing it on to the ICIJ. That might reveal something about those behind the "leak" and their motives. Those who run the "service firms" from which the leaked data is, in part, derived will notice any significant omissions and, hopefully, correct the public record with their own "leaks".
I take this for granted. But, when bad people fight each other in equal terms, their numbers go down a bit and they harm less the whole economy. In contrast, when bad people agree to do business and keep everything quiet, we lose more because they thrive even more and take a larger piece of the economy cake.
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