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Old 24.03.2022, 13:21
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Rebuilding Ukraine

Watching Russia basically s**t all over its own back yard here destroying the infrastructure of the Ukraine? I mystified as to the wisdom of this?

Sure I understand Russia don't want to get into Urban warfare, but isn't somebody going to have to pay to rebuild everything that has been blown up?

Didn't the allies in the last world war come to the conclusion that bombing Germany flat was a poor decision to say the least. It made invading the place far more difficult. No roads, no railways, piles of rubble everywhere?

It will take decades to fix the damage they all ready done? And they're surely not finished yet?

What the value in a pile of bricks? Even if the war ended tomorrow there are some places so badly torn up, the refugees surely cannot return? There is nothing to return to?

And now we're talking nuclear weapons, making the place uninhabitable? This is just madness?

And as for the most valuable resource there, the people? I cannot even begin to imagine how they must feel about Russia? Hatred isn't a word strong enough to describe their feelings I am sure. Russia has created a new generation of terrorists for Russia to deal with over night.

Its all just mad...mad..mad..mad

Last edited by markalex; 24.03.2022 at 13:44.
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Old 24.03.2022, 13:43
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

One small flaw in your logic - you assume Putin cares about anybody else than Putin.
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:04
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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One small flaw in your logic - you assume Putin cares about anybody else than Putin.
But this isn't in Putin's self interest? The economy in Russia goes to hell? The feared Russian army look like a group of boy scouts. The Ukraine people, a very strong group indeed all hate him. All 44 million of them. Many of the Russian population like him even less than they did before?

The economic value of the Ukraine as a country would be worth having, but wait not if you need to rebuild it first. And if he starts using WMD imagine, it is truly worthless, all of it.

It is almost laughable and yet I horrified to say it. Who is going to buy radio active corn? who is going work there?

Mad, mad, mad?

Whatever anybody says, Russia will not win? they lost the minute they fired the first missile.

Last edited by markalex; 24.03.2022 at 14:16.
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:26
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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But this isn't in Putin's self interest? The economy in Russia goes to hell? The feared Russian army look like a group of boy scouts. The Ukraine people, a very strong group indeed all hate him. All 44 million of them. Many of the Russian population like him even less than they did before?

Whatever anybody says, Russia will not win? they lost the minute they fired the first missile.

I am wondering if Putin's fatal error is that he genuinely believed Ukrainians were being repressed by their leadership and that he and his troops would be welcomed with open arms? What is currently happening can't be part of their original master plan.
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:42
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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But this isn't in Putin's self interest? The economy in Russia goes to hell? The feared Russian army look like a group of boy scouts. The Ukraine people, a very strong group indeed all hate him. All 44 million of them. Many of the Russian population like him even less than they did before?

The economic value of the Ukraine as a country would be worth having, but wait not if you need to rebuild it first. And if he starts using WMD imagine, it is truly worthless, all of it.

It is almost laughable and yet I horrified to say it. Who is going to buy radio active corn? who is going work there?

Mad, mad, mad?

Whatever anybody says, Russia will not win? they lost the minute they fired the first missile.



If your premise is that they wanted to win in the first place.
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:44
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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...

Sure I understand Russia don't want to get into Urban warfare, but isn't somebody going to have to pay to rebuild everything that has been blown up?
...
What the value in a pile of bricks?

...
The value is not in the pile of bricks, the value is in being able to rule over the people that do/will eventually live there. Those people will be the ones who will pay by rebuilding for the profit of the occupier

The goal is to occupy first. If Putin occupies Ukraine, it's not like he's going to pay from his own pocket to rebuild. He's going to let the local people rebuild and be more than happy to provide all the resources needed with a good profit margin creamed by his own oligarchs

Now, to some extent, the US/EU would have done the same thing should Ukraine have leaned more to the west, except the EU or US haven't really been considering dropping 500kg bombs on apartment blocks and hospitals to have something to rebuild afterwards

There was a saying that war is the last stage of capitalism...
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:47
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

First of all, Ukraine.
2. I don't remember a time when Germany was invaded.
3. I'm out.
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Old 24.03.2022, 14:49
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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But this isn't in Putin's self interest? The economy in Russia goes to hell? The feared Russian army look like a group of boy scouts. The Ukraine people, a very strong group indeed all hate him. All 44 million of them. Many of the Russian population like him even less than they did before?

The economic value of the Ukraine as a country would be worth having, but wait not if you need to rebuild it first. And if he starts using WMD imagine, it is truly worthless, all of it.

It is almost laughable and yet I horrified to say it. Who is going to buy radio active corn? who is going work there?

Mad, mad, mad?

Whatever anybody says, Russia will not win? they lost the minute they fired the first missile.
I don't think Russia intends to occupy/take over Ukraine (at least not all of it). They know they cannot from their experience in Afghanistan (and if they forgot, the US reminded them even the world's only military superpower couldn't even make much progress there).
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Old 24.03.2022, 15:01
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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The economic value of the Ukraine as a country would be worth having, but wait not if you need to rebuild it first. And if he starts using WMD imagine, it is truly worthless, all of it.
Putin sees Ukraine's potential EU and Nato memberships as an existential threat to Russia. Once that has happened, if it does, UA is permanently lost to the west. Thus anything that reduces the likelihood of those memberships happening is reducing that threat and a positive thing from his POV.

As you write, EU and Nato accession by a devastated Ukraine is not an attractive proposition. Therefore, from the above POV, laying waste to UA is a positive thing as it's increasing Russia's security.
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Old 24.03.2022, 15:41
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

It makes sense he wants to lay waist to the Ukraine to increase Russian security, if it were not for the fact that the 44m Ukraines he has now pissed off will want to see him burn in hell.

Will Russia win this fight? They say 2m refugees have left the Ukraine, that surely translates to 800K angry boyfriends/fathers to join the 250'000 regulars?

A number that wouldn't mean much if all they had to fight with was molotov cocktails and pitchforks, but no the leading industrial powers in Europe are giving this lot real weapons. That is highly motivated fighting force of over a million men. Fighting a Russian army who don't even know why anyone is firing at them, an army of young men it seems, with little to no fighting experience.

The press says some 250'000 Russians soldiers are now on the ground, but correct me if I wrong, but that still leaves them out numbered 4 to 1. With the other side more motivated, defending not attacking.

Putin should cut his loses and pull out, he won't of course but he should.

And I haven't counted the Ukraines who lost their families or have been forced to flee elsewhere within the country.
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Old 24.03.2022, 16:01
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Re: Rebuilding the Ukraine

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It makes sense he wants to lay waist to the Ukraine to increase Russian security, if it were not for the fact that the 44m Ukraines he has now pissed off will want to see him burn in hell.

[...]
The considerations you mention are of course valid from a non-Russian position. But Putin's job is to prioritise Russia, and Russia only.

Think of an individual as an analogy, let's call her Jane. There's a loose gunman spraying bullets on anyone and everyone, including Jane. Luckily she has a gun as well, and kills the gunman with it, removing the existential threat. Of course this kill risks causing retaliatory reactions by the gunman's relatives, but there's no room for such considerations while under fire - they're immaterial unless Jane survives.

Likewise Russia's existence, from Putin's POV. Everything else is secondary to mother Russia's survival.
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Old 24.03.2022, 22:58
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Re: Rebuilding Ukraine

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Rebuilding the Ukraine
It's called Ukraine now. Not the Ukraine. Fixed it for you.
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