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Old 22.02.2023, 15:12
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Brexit consequences and making it work going forward

All those not interested in what is currently happening with the NI Protocol are very welcome to ignore. All those who find it boring too.

Prof Dougan of Liverpool University has always been absolutely clear about it, Brexit means borders. End of.

Professor Michael Dougan, Professor of European Law Liverpool University, gives his thoughts on Northern Ireland
"It's tedious having to repeat ourselves every time Protocol on IRL/NI hits UK headlines (so many past threads...) but bottomless pit of Brexit dishonesty & incompetence makes the task unavoidable.
So... a few simple bullet points, reminding us how to refute common ERG/DUP lies:
Brexit means borders. Inherent and inescapable. And after all, borders are what the Brexitists wanted. But in the case of NI, that border cannot be across land with IRL. So it has to be across sea with GB. Only question is: how visible and cumbersome will that sea border be?
If UK had chosen "soft Brexit" (continued membership of customs union and single market) the NI/GB border could have been minimal. But ERG/DUP supported "hard Brexit" = extreme dislocation between EU and UK. Which inevitably meant NI/GB border needs to be far more complicated.
And that is what Protocol delivered. No border across island of Ireland; border instead between NI and GB. That is a choice entirely attributable to Johnson Government, actively supported by ERG, and also by DUP - until they realised they'd been conned by their Tory chums...
Johnson may consistently lie about / deny responsibility for his own Protocol, Tory Government has never properly complied with its own legally binding duties, on contrary, has repeatedly sought unilaterally to dismantle its own deal. But changes nothing: they made & own it.
ERG/DUP say Protocol is disrupting trade between NI and GB. Of course it does. That is the whole point of Brexit and the Protocol. Did they ever seriously believe their extremist policies would have no consequences either for EU-UK relations or relations between NI & GB?!
ERG/DUP say Protocol keeps NI in EU. Rubbish. NI left EU with rest of UK - against the will of clear majority of its population. Despite sloppy coverage, NI isn't even kept in Single Market: Protocol covers only trade in goods; not services, establishment, capital, people...
ERG/DUP say Protocol makes NI subject to foreign law. Protocol is an international agreement. It does not and cannot apply to NI directly. What applies to NI are the rules enacted into UK law by the UK Parliament. So if certain EU rules apply in NI, it's because UK law says so
ERG/DUP say Protocol is anti-democratic because NI has no say over it. Er. They imposed Brexit on NI against its will. Claimed right to do so because "it's the UK Parliament that is sovereign & democratic". OK, well that same UK Parliament approved & implemented your Protocol
But in any case, NI does have say over Protocol. Assembly gets to vote periodically on whether to keep or abandon it. So NI has a clear and direct voice over Protocol's future. ERG/DUP's real problem? Clear majority in NI want to keep it. But it's only "democracy" if DUP agree
ERG/DUP say NI cannot be treated differently from rest of UK. NI has always been treated differently from rest of UK. Devolution in UK is all about S/W/NI being treated differently. & Brexitists claimed 1 of "big prizes" of leaving EU was to boost those differences even more!
Plus: UK has already enacted legislation (UK Internal Market Act) to manage trade differences between England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland created by divergent rules across 4 territories. Protocol only makes NI situation more different in practice, but not in principle
So frankly, when ERG/DUP attack Protocol: at best they are attacking their own Brexit, since much of what they complain about are the inherent consequences of their own choices; and at worst, they are manufacturing problems for ulterior political reasons. At poor NI's expense
Does that mean Protocol is perfect? Of course not. Every rational actor agrees there are problems to solve & improvements to make. But ERG/DUP have nothing constructive to contribute. Their so-called "tests" are designed to fail. & they offer no credible alternative solutions
So - don't give these charlatans an inch. Challenge every lie they say. Don't let their poison be left to fester. It's tedious. It's repetitive. It's depressing, especially since MSM can't seem to do it properly. But we have no choice: post-truth populists endanger our society."
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Old 22.02.2023, 21:47
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

In case the above is incomprehensible due to the spacing, here's a link to the twitter feed where you can read it in bite-sized increments. Posted on Feb 20.

https://twitter.com/mdouganlpool/sta...18687028281348
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Old 22.02.2023, 21:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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"It's tedious having to repeat ourselves every time”
This is only bit of your post that I completely, and utterly agree with. But I’m saying this in direct reference to 3Wishes comment.
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Old 22.02.2023, 22:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Well,if people don't get the message... sadly... it has to be repeated.

Hope you got it now.
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Old 22.02.2023, 23:14
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Prof Dougan is the most qualified and experienced expert in International negotiations. He warned, and warned again, at the time of the Referendum, before, during, after, and ever since.

His warnings were very clear, but he was derided and ignored- and the ERG in particular, and Johnson, continued to say 'experts' like him had to be ignored and were talking nonsense.

Your groaning will not make any difference to the reality of the disaster we are now facing. Finding a solution for the NI protocol will require some give and take from both sides. Johnson, the ERG and the DUP will not agree to any compromise whatsoever.

I hope Sunak will have the guts to call a 3 line whip and kick them out.
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Old 22.02.2023, 23:18
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Prof Dougan is the most qualified and experienced expert in International negotiations. He warned, and warned again, at the time of the Referendum, before, during, after, and ever since.

His warnings were very clear, but he was derided and ignored- and the ERG in particular, and Johnson, continued to say 'experts' like him had to be ignored and were talking nonsense.

Your groaning will not make any difference to the reality of the disaster we are now facing. Finding a solution for the NI protocol will require some give and take from both sides. Johnson, the ERG and the DUP will not agree to any compromise whatsoever.

I hope Sunak will have the guts to call a 3 line whip and kick them out.
Raking up the past will not make a difference, how many times you may repeat this.
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Old 23.02.2023, 00:13
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well,if people don't get the message... sadly... it has to be repeated.

Hope you got it now.
Iím sure you will find of lot of support on the Twitter and Ďindependentí publications you continually copy and paste (with neither quotes nor links to the original, or passing it on as your own). And Iím sure that your OH is completely and utterly fed-up with it, so you decide to stretch your reach here.

This clearly does not satisfy your obsession with the topic, to the extent that you are additionally continually rude to other posters here.

And donít give me your 72 year old grannie, 3 legged dog story in response, while living in your apparently huge historical house / estate splendor in the Jura. Try posting responsibly and respectfully for a change.
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Old 23.02.2023, 02:16
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Your groaning will not make any difference to the reality of the disaster we are now facing. Finding a solution for the NI protocol will require some give and take from both sides. Johnson, the ERG and the DUP will not agree to any compromise whatsoever. I hope Sunak will have the guts to call a 3 line whip and kick them out.
Interesting comment posted in The Guardian today to an opinion piece by John Crase

Quote:
The UK now has a second bite at the Northern Ireland protocol. A chance to acknowledge reality and achieve a robust solution that has, at its heart, the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland.

Furthermore, it is an opportunity to lance the boil of lies and deceit that have characterised the Brexit years. Sunak could embrace this moment, articulate some harsh truths and set out logical inconsistencies that can no longer be indulged. It is simply not possible to fulfil every wet dream of the DUP and English Brexiteers and continue to meet the treaty obligations of the Good Friday agreement.

But Sunak will not do this. He may achieve an improved deal – a more workable protocol – but he only wants to do this if he can manage the optics. His primary aim is to ensure that the delusions of Brexit live another day.

In all this, the continued indulgence afforded the DUP is a marvel to behold. It is with wearisome predictability that complying with every whim of the DUP is defined within Tory circles as the only solution to the protocol that could possibly work. For back in England the bleating of the DUP is conflated with the expressed wish of every citizen of Northern Ireland.

If the knowledge of Ireland among British politicians generally is lamentable, the contributions from the Tory Party and the ERG on the subject are execrable. But if ever a couple were made for one another, it is the DUP and the ERG. Toxic twins locked in a tango dancing to the tune of narrow self-interest, spite and wilful ignorance.

This is a dangerous moment. Forces exist within Northern Ireland that are not easily controlled once let loose. With unserious and disreputable actors entering the fray from England the dangers draw ever closer. The irresponsibility is truly breath-taking. It is the perfect storm of stupidity, shamelessness and petty, vain ambition.

There is a brief moment now for Sunak to get things on a better footing. If he spurns this opportunity for fear of disrupting party unity, a rather bleak course will be set. And while the UK will have no one to blame but itself, the failure will provide nourishment in perpetuity for the DUP and Brexiteers. For they and their ilk feed gluttonously on grievance and false narratives of betrayal while offering absolutely nothing in return.

Last edited by Belgianmum; 23.02.2023 at 08:02.
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Old 23.02.2023, 09:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well,if people don't get the message... sadly... it has to be repeated.

Hope you got it now.
I get the feeling you are the one failing to get it. 99% of people get it, it happened, 3 YEARS ago. A lot of people weren't happy then, more people are unhappy now.

I myself regret the time I could have bought a winning lottery ticket, I tell everyone around me how we should go back in time and it would all be better. Most people look at me like a crazy person and tell me to get on with life and look to the future.
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Old 23.02.2023, 10:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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I get the feeling you are the one failing to get it. 99% of people get it, it happened, 3 YEARS ago. A lot of people weren't happy then, more people are unhappy now.

I myself regret the time I could have bought a winning lottery ticket, I tell everyone around me how we should go back in time and it would all be better. Most people look at me like a crazy person and tell me to get on with life and look to the future.
Well you obviously donít get it either. The UK canít look to the future until it acknowledges the current situation - both sides need to accept that BREXIT is not working and never will, while accepting that there is no reset button so a consensus for a new way forward must be found. In the meantime the bickering and the infighting will continue.
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Old 23.02.2023, 11:03
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Until the UK stops looking into the past and their former glory, nothing will advance !
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Old 23.02.2023, 18:52
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Well you obviously don’t get it either. The UK can’t look to the future until it acknowledges the current situation - both sides need to accept that BREXIT is not working and never will, while accepting that there is no reset button so a consensus for a new way forward must be found. In the meantime the bickering and the infighting will continue.
Exactly, anyone is saying it is 'done' is talking nonsense. The vote has happened, but Brexit is not 'done', and what has been done is not working for the UK, and making every one but a tiny elite, poorer or much poorer.It is very unlikely the EU will agree to make huge concessions, why should they? So the UK has to find solutions, and sharpish.

The situation with Ireland and NI is almost impossible to solve, and as said above, both the ERG and the DUP are doing their best to scupper any effort to find a way. The NHS is falling apart, same all kinds of industry and business, including agriculture. The shortage of medicines, chemicals for water treatment, etc, and now fruit and veg rationning- and the checks coming into Britain have not even been implemented, as the UK knows it would cause even more shortages, and chaos.

The vote is done and over with. Brexit is not, that is for 100% sure.

And although Labour is not planning to rejoin- it is certainly planning to try and make it work, with all sorts of compromises. Starmer is already talking to EU leaders all the time, and although he says no at the moment, it is very likely that he will try to rejoin some form on access to single market and customs union, and on free movement.

Brexit is not done- and the bits that are, are a disaster.

Anyone who takes the time to read about it, watch News and Political Programmes, reads newspapers (even the tabloids), will know this.


Ato, what nonsense- when you buy a lottery ticket, you know what the prize is. No-one knew what Brexit meant and what form it would take. Johnson, pushed by the ERG faction, a far right party within the Tory party, chose a very extreme form of Brexit. They could have chosen a very different form.
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Old 23.02.2023, 19:53
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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exactly, anyone is saying it is 'done' is talking nonsense. The vote has happened, but brexit is not 'done', and what has been done is not working for the uk, and making every one but a tiny elite, poorer or much poorer.it is very unlikely the eu will agree to make huge concessions, why should they? So the uk has to find solutions, and sharpish.

The situation with ireland and ni is almost impossible to solve, and as said above, both the erg and the dup are doing their best to scupper any effort to find a way. The nhs is falling apart, same all kinds of industry and business, including agriculture. The shortage of medicines, chemicals for water treatment, etc, and now fruit and veg rationning- and the checks coming into britain have not even been implemented, as the uk knows it would cause even more shortages, and chaos.

The vote is done and over with. Brexit is not, that is for 100% sure.

And although labour is not planning to rejoin- it is certainly planning to try and make it work, with all sorts of compromises. Starmer is already talking to eu leaders all the time, and although he says no at the moment, it is very likely that he will try to rejoin some form on access to single market and customs union, and on free movement.

Brexit is not done- and the bits that are, are a disaster.

Anyone who takes the time to read about it, watch news and political programmes, reads newspapers (even the tabloids), will know this.


Ato, what nonsense- when you buy a lottery ticket, you know what the prize is. No-one knew what brexit meant and what form it would take. Johnson, pushed by the erg faction, a far right party within the tory party, chose a very extreme form of brexit. They could have chosen a very different form.

brexit is done, there is no way back
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Old 23.02.2023, 19:59
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

On and On and On Anon...
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:02
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Brexit is done, article 50 was triggered and the UK left the EU. Fact.
There is nothing that can be done about that, itís done. End of.

The consequences of Brexit on the other hand are far from done and wonít be for a long time.
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:12
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Brexit is done, article 50 was triggered and the UK left the EU. Fact.
There is nothing that can be done about that, itís done. End of.

The consequences of Brexit on the other hand are far from done and wonít be for a long time.
Which, if Iím not mistaken, is why this thread is here. Not to play a broken LP (some of you might not know what that is, apologies) on repeat mode, for several years. Non-stop.

Some of the consequences are truly interesting, and worth discussion. Like the rationing of vegetables in the UK that is taking place right now.
But hashing over how to turn back your Piaget is not.


https://www.theguardian.com/business...herish-turnips
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:36
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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brexit is done, there is no way back
Did you actually read my post?

On and on, and on ... yes it is, yes it will, unfortunately. A tragedy for a country I loved and served for such a long time- and intended to go back to (but no longer). Yes, on and on - and on some more.

Fruit and veg rationning anyone? And they have not yet dared implement the checks they insisted upon for goods coming to UK- as they know it will make shortages much worse, especially for things which are more essential than tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers!
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:45
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

Mods how about ending this thread, and splitting off the last couple of days posts into a new thread ďConsequences of BrexitĒ.

Thank you.
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:54
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

In the meantime, as said above, there are no checks currently on foodstuff entering the UK, and most other goods. On BBC news last night, very dangerous electric heaters causing fires. And no checks on foodstuff, a real danger for health and for agriculture

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...inette-batters

The reasons the checks have not been implemented by the UK (Brexit) Governement, is that they know it would cause massive chaos with queues, red tape, etc, which they are not prepared for. Taking back control - they said. So yes, it is going on, and on, and on some more.
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Old 23.02.2023, 20:57
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Did you actually read my post?

On and on, and on ... yes it is, yes it will, unfortunately. A tragedy for a country I loved and served for such a long time- and intended to go back to (but no longer). Yes, on and on - and on some more.

Fruit and veg rationning anyone? And they have not yet dared implement the checks they insisted upon for goods coming to UK- as they know it will make shortages much worse, especially for things which are more essential than tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers!

That country you loved is well past the sell by date now, it has gone for ever, forget about it, it won't nor can come back to what you remember.


The UK has been running on empty for years now, all they can bleat on about is the "special relation" they think they have with the US. This again is total myth, the US really doesn't care about the UK any more than any other country.


Times change, the UK didn't and now it has come back to hit them well and truly


As for reading your post, I'm sorry it's just re-heated left overs.


The UK has left and the EU will not allow the UK to rejoin on terms that are vaguely acceptable so it will not happen.
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