We can discuss here who did what when and to whom and go on for ever and ever. As in any conflict you have to try to forget this and ask the question: how can we move forward from here. There HAS to be good will from the side who holds the power at some point for there to be any chance of peace. It is not enough to say that we cannot allow the palastinians the same human rights as others because there is a danger of terrorism. Human Rights are universal....no one has the right to take them away. Perhaps israelis might be right.....there may be 1 or 2 acts of terrorism after. But this will be from a very select few of the population and the rest of the palastinians will gradually shift away from these people and their policies. After all the majority of the palastinians only want what the majority of the israelis want. Take away their suffering and you will take away their willingness to fight and support extremist groups. They will be too busy living their lives....educating themselves....going on holidays....doing what normal people do. If you live in a state of utter hopelessness with no future to look forward to at the age of 17 or 18, it is very easy for someone to come up to you and give you a gun and say now you are SOMEBODY, come and fight with us for the cause. This is basic human psychology, I am sure some israelis do realise this. Unfortunately they are held up by the extreme right religious side of the israeli population which believes that the jews have a right to all of the land of israel and that they will not accept any compromise to this position. These groups are also supported heavily from abroad. These groups including the zionists are essentially an acceptable name for a fascist movement. Their ultimate goal is a pure jewish state. If you really want to solve this conflict you have to deal with these groups and ideology. Unfortunately in the USA and other countries people don't know all the facts and blindly support these groups because their beliefs and aims are not widely reported in the media. Believe me if the palastinians had their freedom and were still committing acts like suicide bombings, no country in the world would be supporting them and israel would get the full support of everyone to deal with this. As it stands they cannot claim the moral high ground.....how can they......they are using the most modern weaponary on a defenceless population....shame on them!! No excuse, Not even dealing with HAMAS can justify such a cowardly act! What will happen to the popularity of HAMAS and other extreme groups after the latest israeli massacre?!? it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work this out

I'm afraid these kinds of comparisons are pointless. How can you compare BNP members to Palastinians!?!? Have BNP members been kicked off their lands, their houses bull dozed, forced to live in refugee camps/prisons, every aspect of their lives controlled, bombed with the latest weaponary and their whole existence/nationality questioned?? I mean do I really need to go on?

LOL dude I was talking about the times of the Empire, i.e. before Uncle Sam decided he wanted to export rock'n'roll to the rest of the globe

Paul

This will turn into a long thread ...

Hamas has been in full control of Gaza for over a year - which bulldozing are you talking about ? Hamas could have build houses, but decided to buy weapons instead.

come on man....these are cheap shots. When you say FULL control, is that the same control any government has on its nation? the same control that israel has on it's country for example?

They are a REFUGEE camp. They cannot export/import, they cannot fly in and out. They cannot even control their water supply. They rely on hand outs from the outside....they rely on begging from their masters for supplies even medicines.

Even if they had freedom, it would take them years before they could sort themselves out after such a long time living like this.....both politically and as a People. Why should they build houses in a refugee camp.......only to see them bombed to bits again?

These people need hope.....and right now the only people who offer them anything is unfortunately HAMAS.

And your comment about bulldozing........ are you serious?

It seems to me this is larger than a regional conflict between Hamas and Israel. There is intervention from the larger part of the world.

As for proportion, look at a map of the size of Israel vs. the larger pan-arab states (+ Iran, Pakistan and beyond). I have a different take on who the underdog in this situation is.

The underdogs are usually the ones who are suffering the MOST. I don't think there is any question as to whom they are.......

This is an example of the kind of rethoric which doesn't allow anyone to move forward. Israel has US' best technology, Hamas is bankrolled and supplied with arms by other islamic states. Now what? Unfortunately the equilibrium point is only reached by means of violence and deterrence - in Palestine as elsewhere.

But you can't evade reality - you can't evade from the Big Blue Marble 'cos you ain't gonna go nowhere - practical, tangible solutions need to be worked out by Men who decide to use brain and pen instead of a gun. Because otherwise the Big Blue Marble will inevitably be too tight, uncomfortably so, for most of us :-/

Peace,

Paul

If this is true and HAMAS have the backing of all of these powerful, heavily armed Arab states, then how come their main threat is from homemade Qassam rockets.

From the U.N.
11 Israeli civilians, including four children, have died since 2004, from the 2,696 Qassam rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups from the Gaza Strip into nearby Israeli towns, particularly Sderot.

So they fired almost 2700 rockets, and only managed to kill 11 people since 2004.

The crux of the problem is somewhere in there. That said, the Palestinians and their leadership could look for ways to take advantage of Israel's stubborn stance to take back the moral high ground and win back the good will of international community, to the point that Israel will have absolutely no leg to stand on. Peaceful protests, end to the violence on their side, and Israel would lose all international support (maybe besides America) in not even a year. They could look to a certain guy named Ghandi for inspiration.

I am not saying that it's only up to the Palestinians to get their act together, it would be much easier if Israel did it, as you said, and the desperation of the Palestinians refugees is not to be ignored. But I am saying that it's possible for any side, not just the one holding all the power, to gain moral superiority, if they just weren't so stubborn and stupid.

Hamas et al aside, the Palestinians already have the moral high ground, they have considerable International support, they have over 100 UN resolutions concerning/critical of the State of Israel.

All that is missing is a court.

But they have already lost international support - they did do a long time ago.

Here's a letter from the United Nation's permanent observer in Palestine, addressed to the General Assembly.

It is with deepest regret that I inform you that Israel, the occupying Power, has unleashed a deadly rampage in the Gaza Strip today, resulting in the deaths of over 200 Palestinians, with many innocent children and women among the dead and wounded. In this regard, in flagrant violation and grave breach of the relevant rules and provisions of international law, Israeli F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters dropped over 100 bombs on dozens of locations in the Gaza Strip in the mid-morning hours of 27 December 2008 (local time).

and:

The present letter is in follow-up to our previous 323 letters to you regarding the ongoing crisis in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, since 28 September 2000. These letters, dated from 29 September 2000 (A/55/432-S/2000/921) to 5 December 2008 (A/ES-10/427-S/2008/768), constitute a basic record of the crimes being committed by Israel, the occupying Power, against the Palestinian people since September 2000.

Hmm, Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

But pure Islamic / Christian / Spaghetti monster states are OK?

...which Israel has attempted to do with Hamas, and look at the thanks they received. Thankfully, Israel is an educated, functioning democracy which encourages dissent. Try dissenting in Gaza and see how you're handled.

I don't believe you. Although not a Sovereign State, the Palestinian Leadership had every opportunity to make it work, but! Why change the balance of power? This oppression suits the nutty extremists. Without it they'd be like the UK BNP: a faction of loons or the reserve of protest voters, not the viscious thugs they presently are.

Gosh, if I assist someone in a crime - even after a crime - I'm an accessory. If I'm not happy with a bomb factory in my basement...

What will happen to the popularity of Israel and other ****ed-off groups after the latest Hamas massacre?

__________________
Wave ¦ Synthpop ¦ 80's ¦ Alternative ¦ Party ¦ Sat 24.03 Provitreff Zurich

I agree with him. Instead of using their millions of Dollars relieving the misery of their Wards, Hamas buys missiles. Real smart.

A reductio ad absurdum arguement about why people should bother to try rebuilding their lives rather than invest in destruction ...are you serious???

Well, intention is everything. Hamas has no intention of making peace with Israel; it intends to destroy the State.

Israel has great intentions of peace for all parties; but it won't gamble with loons.

The Islamo-fascist regime has the moral high ground ? They have an automatic majority in the U.N, the will to destroy Israel - luckily they don't have the means.

I wonder what would your court sentence the Hamas leaders ?

Kicker hit the nail on the head - In the eyes of most, the one who suffers more is right.
Hence Hamas policy to increase Palestinian suffering - using civilians as human shields, refusing to invest in the welfare of the people, keeping people in refugee camps.

I repeat my question - when was the last time israel bulldozed house in Gaza ? not in the last 1.5 years. find another excuse

Try updating the figures to 2008 and we'll see 701 Israeli fatalities. (Source: B'Tselem - hardly a bastion of Zionist Propaganda). Don't concentrate solely on the weaponary used to kill people. Does a suicide bomber rank lower than an Apache helicopter on the Bizarre Scale of Death?

I highly recommend anyone interested to spend some time in these parts and see the daily havoc created by 2900 assorted missiles landing on ones surroundings, regardless of how many people are killed. Political Will is all in these situations.

Why the deliberate obfuscation Pashosh, you know I wrote 'Hamas aside'?

As for your absurd revisionist claims that the Arabs in the region were not called Palestinians prior to 1948, how do you account for this relic?

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