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  #81  
Old 01.01.2009, 16:52
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

I am not a pessimist like you.....I believe that the peoples of the world can live together because our similiarities are far greater than our differences.

When you say ethnic cleansing is the only solution, are you implying that Hitler and Nazi germany were right in ethnically cleansing the Jews!?!

Further more you somehow believe that Israel can kick out the palastinians and the rest of the Arab countries are obliged to take them!? why doesn't the USA give them all immigration rights to the USA? why doesn't germany which persecuted the Jews and is partially responsible for the Jewish migration give the palastinians free right of entry?!?

and finally my last question is......why should palastinians accept to be kicked out of their land by the Israelis?? By your argument you will have no problem if for example the chinese turn up in Israel, ethnically cleanse the Jews. You will just say the Israelis and Jews should accept it and move on to somewhere else right? Israel should not be allowed to set a precedent.

Believe it or not there is such a thing as International Law, observation of Human Rights and respect of the dignity of your fellow man.
Just because Israel doesn't observe these it doesn't mean they do not exist!
Yes you are right.....it is not only easy for me but also you and the rest of us to sit at our computers in zh or wherever and express our points of view rather than putting ourselves in the shoes of the Palastinians and try to understand their plight and suffering.
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  #82  
Old 01.01.2009, 17:10
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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I am not a pessimist like you.....I believe that the peoples of the world can live together because our similiarities are far greater than our differences.
Then you must have slept through the twentieth century, and the first eight years of the twenty first.

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When you say ethnic cleansing is the only solution, are you implying that Hitler and Nazi germany were right in ethnically cleansing the Jews!?!
That idiotic question doesn't merit a single second more of my ti

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Further more you somehow believe that Israel can kick out the palastinians and the rest of the Arab countries are obliged to take them!? why doesn't the USA give them all immigration rights to the USA? why doesn't germany which persecuted the Jews and is partially responsible for the Jewish migration give the palastinians free right of entry?!?
Why shouldn't the government and people of Jordan and Egypt welcome their own brethren, as the government and people of Cyprus, Greece, Germany and so many other places welcomed their own brethren who had been expelled from occupied territories? Why should it be the Americans' (or anyone else's) responsibility?

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and finally my last question is......why should palastinians accept to be kicked out of their land by the Israelis?? By your argument you will have no problem if for example the chinese turn up in Israel, ethnically cleanse the Jews. You will just say the Israelis and Jews should accept it and move on to somewhere else right? Israel should not be allowed to set a precedent.
Because it's done. Sixty years' worth of established reality isn't going to change. The Israelis are never going to withdraw and settle in Siberia any more than the Turks are going to withdraw from Cyprus, or the Kosovars are going to invite the Serbs back into their shiny new statelet. The Arabs of Palestine and their patrons can either destroy Israel (which they have tried, and failed, to do before), whinge, gripe and moan for another 60 years, or accept the fact that they're never going to have the cushy little Jew-free nation they've been agitating for, and establish something else instead.

Israel set no precedent. It has been the same old story throughout history. Either fight back and win, or give up and build something else. Israel is there and not going anywhere. Turkey is there and not going anywhere. Kosova is there and not going anywhere. So it goes.

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Believe it or not there is such a thing as International Law, observation of Human Rights and respect of the dignity of your fellow man.
Just because Israel doesn't observe these it doesn't mean they do not exist!
Is that the same International Law that allows the United Kingdom and the United States to bomb bridges on the Danube, invade sovereign nations and generally cause mischief all over the world? Is that the same International Law that allowed thousands of Muslims to be murdered in front of helpless Dutch soldiers in Srebrenica? Is that the same International Law that is unable to help the people of Tibet, or solve the crisis in Cyprus, or stop the poor buggers in Darfur from being treated like dirt?

Since when did International Law count for anything?

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I know. I always am.
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  #83  
Old 01.01.2009, 17:20
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

Well I think enough opinions have been expressed here from all sides and people can judge for themselves which arguments hold weight.

......and Dougal's Breakfast.....well done for being always right!!
  #84  
Old 01.01.2009, 19:15
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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Why shouldn't the government and people of Jordan and Egypt welcome their own brethren, as the government and people of Cyprus, Greece, Germany and so many other places welcomed their own brethren who had been expelled from occupied territories?
There are 3 million Palestinians living in Jordan, how many more do you think King Abdullah should take in?

Number of Palestinians in diaspora:
Jordan 3,000,000
Syria 434,896
Lebanon 405,425
Chile 300,000
Saudi Arabia 327,000
The Americas 225,000
Egypt 44,200
Arab Gulf states 159,000
Other Arab states 153,000
All other countries 308,000
TOTAL 5,256,321
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  #85  
Old 01.01.2009, 19:35
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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There are 3 million Palestinians living in Jordan, how many more do you think King Abdullah should take in?

Number of Palestinians in diaspora:
Jordan 3,000,000
Syria 434,896
Lebanon 405,425
Chile 300,000
Saudi Arabia 327,000
The Americas 225,000
Egypt 44,200
Arab Gulf states 159,000
Other Arab states 153,000
All other countries 308,000
TOTAL 5,256,321
If the states mentioned in your list had allowed the 700,000 or so Arab refugees from Palestine to become citizens of their countries back in 1948 - 1950, as Israel allowed the 800, 000 displaced Jews of the Middle East to become citizens of their tiny new state, then there wouldn't be five million Palestinians to accomodate now. Rather, there would be several million normal Arabs, who happen to be of Palestinian origin, living in their own countries, with normal passports and normal lives, just like all the Germans, Poles, Jews, Greeks and Armenians who have settled far from their places of birth and become useful citizens of the nations in which they and their descendents now find themselves.

It is only the intransigence of the Arab League, which forbade the granting of citizenship to the refugees from Palestine as a deliberate policy to keep them in their place, stateless, impoverished and vulnerable to the whims of the new state of Israel, that has kept this problem bubbling over for way longer than it should have done.

The Israelis have their reasons for treating the Arabs of Palestine badly, whether those reasons be justified or not. What is the excuse of their own brethren?
  #86  
Old 01.01.2009, 19:40
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

Further to my previous post, here is an article from a few years ago about new Saudi citizenship rules:

JEDDAH, 21 October 2004 Expatriates of all nationalities are entitled to apply for Saudi citizenship and their travels abroad with re-entry visas will not disqualify them, press reports said yesterday quoting senior officials.

But not the displaced Arabs of Palestine, of course... oh no....

But Al-Watan Arabic daily reported that the naturalization law would not be applicable to Palestinians living in the Kingdom as the Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...21&m=10&y=2004
  #87  
Old 01.01.2009, 20:44
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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  #88  
Old 01.01.2009, 23:03
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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Further to my previous post, here is an article from a few years ago about new Saudi citizenship rules:

JEDDAH, 21 October 2004 Expatriates of all nationalities are entitled to apply for Saudi citizenship and their travels abroad with re-entry visas will not disqualify them, press reports said yesterday quoting senior officials.

But not the displaced Arabs of Palestine, of course... oh no....

But Al-Watan Arabic daily reported that the naturalization law would not be applicable to Palestinians living in the Kingdom as the Arab League has instructed that Palestinians living in Arab countries should not be given citizenship to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...21&m=10&y=2004

When one doesn't have valid arguments and cannot deny the reality there is a tendency to try and extend the problem, introduce falsehoods and blame anyone except the main culprit.

It is not Israel who is at fault here for Ethnically Cleansing the Palastinians, it is the fault of all the other nations for not accepting them with open arms......hmmmmm....that argument certainly proves that Israel is blameless in all of this.

I and others in this thread have printed facts about actual statistics, actual outrage from all parts of the world, actual crimes of the Israelis......the main ones right now being the denial of human rights to a large population and bombarding defenseless woman and children. Why don't you address any of these issues instead of talking about problems which are a consequence of and only exist because of Israeli Fascist policies. Why do you keep referring to other conflicts in other countries as though because crimes were committed elsewhere at other times, this somehow means therefore that Israel should also be allowed to commit these crimes unchecked and without criticism.

I am not defending the saudi arabian regime.......they are a disgrace! They commit much worst crimes than not allowing palastinians citizenship, they are a dictatorial medieval regime. Israel claims to be different, a democracy, a country of morals and values, part of the 'civilised world' whatever that means......so in this context explain please the slaughter of innocent woman and children.....like the ones I have been viewing with disgust for the last few days on my TV. It's very easy to fool oneself The Israeli regime is one of the worst if not THE worst Tyrannical regime that exists in our world today and has to be dealt with along with all the other fundementalist regimes.
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  #89  
Old 01.01.2009, 23:27
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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When one doesn't have valid arguments and cannot deny the reality there is a tendency to try and extend the problem, introduce falsehoods and blame anyone except the main culprit.

It is not Israel who is at fault here for Ethnically Cleansing the Palastinians, it is the fault of all the other nations for not accepting them with open arms......hmmmmm....that argument certainly proves that Israel is blameless in all of this.

I and others in this thread have printed facts about actual statistics, actual outrage from all parts of the world, actual crimes of the Israelis......the main ones right now being the denial of human rights to a large population and bombarding defenseless woman and children. Why don't you address any of these issues instead of talking about problems which are a consequence of and only exist because of Israeli Fascist policies. Why do you keep referring to other conflicts in other countries as though because crimes were committed elsewhere at other times, this somehow means therefore that Israel should also be allowed to commit these crimes unchecked and without criticism.

I am not defending the saudi arabian regime.......they are a disgrace! They commit much worst crimes than not allowing palastinians citizenship, they are a dictatorial medieval regime. Israel claims to be different, a democracy, a country of morals and values, part of the 'civilised world' whatever that means......so in this context explain please the slaughter of innocent woman and children.....like the ones I have been viewing with disgust for the last few days on my TV. It's very easy to fool oneself The Israeli regime is one of the worst if not THE worst Tyrannical regime that exists in our world today and has to be dealt with along with all the other fundementalist regimes.
Your simplistic assessment of the current situation makes it difficult to explain without patronising or assuming responsibility of 'personal middle-eastern political educator to kicker'.

While it gets in everyones craw that innocents are dying - and for what it's worth, until yesterday over 75% of those dying are militants [source:UN], which I assume has your support - please educate yourself on such hugely emotive topics as Israel / Palestine before making outrageous comments as above.

You clearly feel bad about the carnage but don't know what you're talking about beyond: "It must stop". I don't recall anyone lambasting the terror from Hamas over the last few years, other than crass "only so many Israelis were killed, it's not that bad" comments, which are frankly insulting and missing the point.

All the best.

Ps, here's another sorry story, 500 massacred last week alone.
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  #90  
Old 01.01.2009, 23:33
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

The theme of this threrad is "when will it end".

I don't expect this to end in my lifetime. I grew up with jews and arabs and have friends all over the world.

I have yet to meet a bad jew. I have yet to meet a bad arab.

Live and let love people.
  #91  
Old 01.01.2009, 23:39
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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When one doesn't have valid arguments and cannot deny the reality there is a tendency to try and extend the problem, introduce falsehoods and blame anyone except the main culprit.
...
Agreed (btw - any proof for your "Palestinians are not Arabs" declaration ? )

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The Israeli regime is one of the worst if not THE worst Tyrannical regime that exists in our world today and has to be dealt with along with all the other fundementalist regimes.
Worse than N. Korea, Zimbabwe or Sudan ? If it's so bad how come Arabs are fighting to stay Israeli citizens ?
  #92  
Old 01.01.2009, 23:42
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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Your simplistic assessment of the current situation makes it difficult to explain without patronising or assuming responsibility of 'personal middle-eastern political educator to kicker'.
I beg you to please educate and patronise me......I welcome you prove me wrong and make me see that Israel didn't start this...they didn't commit any of these crimes and that they are a wonderful humane regime....please be
my guest!
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  #93  
Old 02.01.2009, 00:13
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

well guess what innocent people are dying in these bombings, anyone saying thats right, Just an opinion so dont shoot me down in flames. As always when there are political differences in the ME innocent people die.
  #94  
Old 02.01.2009, 01:00
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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I don't recall anyone lambasting the terror from Hamas over the last few years, other than crass "only so many Israelis were killed, it's not that bad" comments, which are frankly insulting and missing the point.
None of us has any issue condemning Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade etc.. However I have heard scant little criticism from you regarding the brutal actions of the IDF or the apartheid* policies of the Israeli state. We all have our sympathies and individual biases, I will grant you that, but even friends need to move away from being apologists and instead employ a little more brutal honesty.
There seems to be this romanticising of Israel which probably goes back to the fledgling Jewish state surrounded by hostile neighbours, but those days are long gone. It has since grown into the dominant superpower in the region and therefore the world expects a lot more from Israel than it does from Fateh, Hamas et al. The Palestinians and Israelis were earlier described as petulent children, I would sooner describe them as lambs and wolves respectively.

* Apartheid is not a term I use lightly but it was used by SA Bishop Desmond Tutu on his visit to Israel when describing their policies towards the Palestinians; Clearly a man who knows it when he sees it.
It was also used by Shulamit Aloni (former Israeli education minister and winner of numerous civil rights awards) when she observed that the State of Israel practices a violent form of apartheid on the native Palestinian population
Link
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Old 02.01.2009, 01:54
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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* Apartheid is not a term I use lightly but it was used by SA Bishop Desmond Tutu on his visit to Israel when describing their policies towards the Palestinians; Clearly a man who knows it when he sees it.
It was also used by Shulamit Aloni (former Israeli education minister and winner of numerous civil rights awards) when she observed that the State of Israel practices a violent form of apartheid on the native Palestinian population
Link

Thank you for this link Castro. It's the first time I read such an accurate and condemning account of the Israeli Regime from a former Israeli Minister.

Perhaps if more people (not mentioning anyone in particular....patronising not necessary ) researched articles such as these a bit more than they would grasp the enormity of the Palastinian suffering and realise that Israel, not only is far from being the innocent party in this conflict but in fact with it's apartheid policies is the instigator.

Well done to Shulamit Aloni!! If only more Israeli ministers and officials were like her and were brave enough to acknowledge the crimes of their own country and really understand the meaning of Human Rights and how it applies to everyone universally and without conditions.
  #96  
Old 02.01.2009, 02:03
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

I hate to nitpick on spelling, but your passionate defense of the Palestinians would be a bit more credible if you could actually spell it correctly...

fduvall

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Thank you for this link Castro. It's the first time I read such an accurate and condemning account of the Israeli Regime from a former Israeli Minister.

Perhaps if more people (not mentioning anyone in particular....patronising not necessary ) researched articles such as these a bit more than they would grasp the enormity of the Palastinian suffering and realise that Israel, not only is far from being the innocent party in this conflict but in fact with it's apartheid policies is the instigator.

Well done to Shulamit Aloni!! If only more Israeli ministers and officials were like her and were brave enough to acknowledge the crimes of their own country and really understand the meaning of Human Rights and how it applies to everyone universally and without conditions.
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  #97  
Old 02.01.2009, 14:48
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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I hate to nitpick on spelling, but your passionate defense of the Palestinians would be a bit more credible if you could actually spell it correctly...

fduvall
You say you don't like to nitpick, so why did you?

I don't think that changing 1 letter would remove or add any credibility to anything i've printed.

The films and pictures of bloody faced babies and children with their limbs broken being pulled out of the rubbles of bombed houses speaks for itself but yeah why don't we concentrate on spelling instead!

No matter what is printed here by anyone, you cannot change the reality of the horror being committed and you cannot twist the facts so much as to make it go away- I am totally against this situation and the slaughter ----------> my credibility is right there!
  #98  
Old 02.01.2009, 15:08
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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No matter what is printed here by anyone, you cannot change the reality of the horror being committed
And neither can you.

So all your words are as pointless as ours.

So what are you going to do about the people you have been watching on your television set from the comfort of your flat in Switzerland?
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Old 02.01.2009, 15:17
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

...and, while I don't usually support pedantry myself, I think fduvall makes a fair point.

Do you actually know what you are talking about, having been to the Levant, studied the history of the Ottoman Empire and its decline, read documents and books (paper ones, not just crap off the interweb) and shown a long term interest in the people and affairs of the region, or are you just another passive foreigner who has seen some stuff on the telly, read all about it on Wikipedia and got into a righteous huff about it, despite knowing little of the origins and development of the conflict? A passive foreigner, moreover, who is likely to do nothing to help the innocent victims, whether they be Arabs or Israelis, apart from bang on about it on a Swiss website for English speaking foreigners, most of whom aren't very likely to do much about the situation, either?

Your continued inability to spell the name of the very people involved in this crisis - not a mere typo, but a mistake repeated again and again throughout your posts - suggests that you fall into the latter category.

I would be delighted if you could prove fduvall and me wrong.
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  #100  
Old 02.01.2009, 15:19
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Re: Israel - Palestine, when will it end

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And neither can you.

So all your words are as pointless as ours.

So what are you going to do about the people you have been watching on your television set from the comfort of your flat in Switzerland?

Perhaps you hold it against me being comfortable? Perhaps you prefer it if I was in Gaza instead?

I am merely expressing my outrage and disgust at the Israeli actions......I believe I have the rights to do so. As to what am I going to do about the images I see?......well all I can do is speak out and inform and add my voice to all the other people in the world who are demanding that Israel stops its actions. Maybe you got some better ideas? please share with us?
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