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  #41  
Old 17.03.2007, 20:17
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only

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Did any of you watch that channel 4 documentary last night called "The Great Global Warming Swindle"? (well those of you with satellite that is...)
I've been told it is available on google video
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  #42  
Old 22.03.2007, 10:28
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only

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I've been told it is available on google video
Good link. Well worth watching - but read the Independent's comments too:

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Well I never, Durkin peppered his documentary on C4 with falsified data...

http://news.independent.co.uk/enviro...cle2355956.ece
Despite using out of date charts, the Cannel 4 programme raises some interesting points:

- CO2 is only 0.54% of our atmosphere.
- Less than 10% of this CO2 is produced by man.
- Oceans produce most CO2 and the warmer the ocean the more the CO2 they produce.
- CO2 is not important in global warming, but water vapour is.
- Global warming periods, like ice-ages, are a natural phenomena that have occurred many times in the past. (And despite it the polar bear has survived!)
- Global warming is caused by cosmic rays from the sun and the activity of sun spots.

I'd really don't know what to believe anymore because we have been through so many theories that were supposedly vital the continuance of human life:

- in 1990 the summer levels of ozone were deemed so dangerous in Switzerland that a 100kph speed limit (complete with new signs everywhere) was imposed on Swiss autobahns. The next year the danger levels were raised and no more speed limits were found necessary.
- 'micro particles' (Feinstaub) emitted from diesel engines is supposed to kill 4,000 people a year in Switzerland. This scientific theory seems to be quietly dying.

Has carbon really anything to do with global warming?
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  #43  
Old 22.03.2007, 13:13
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

All those facts are posited in meteorological models predicting a manmade warming AbFab, the sun spots, the cycles, etc, etc
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  #44  
Old 23.03.2007, 10:35
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

It seems there's a lot of 'cart before horse' mentality on this topic. It's generally a good idea to conserve energy and not expend it: generations have taught us ways and means to get by efficiently, and mankind has done quite well for last few thousand years.

It appears in the last 40 years or so everyone's power-usage has increased on such a large scale that we're in the pickle we're in now.

Whatever your views on climate change, there are ways of saving power, saving money - and as a *nice* consequence - contributing to a greener planet. It doesn't have to involve wearing a hairy shirt.

What seems to annoy those who doubt climate change is that somehow they're going to have to change their behaviour. They just don't like to accept that their behaviour is having devestating consequences, albeit on a minute scale.

My 96yrs old Grandmother and I have long discussions on these themes. She grew up beyond the pale and farmed the land: there's nothing she doesn't know about organic food, land- and animal husbandry, mending and making do, etc. But she doesn't get the environmental movement, as it's on a scale beyond what she can comprehend.

I feel it's the opposite for people of my generation: they see the big picture but don't get the individual responsibility element.

The hoo-ha over energy-efficient lighbulbs caused some to go apoplectic. Have we all become so selfish and consumerist that we no longer recognise the need to behave appropriately? Is a 5.3l Saab really necessary? Do you need to make that long haul flight? Do you consider the political / social / environmental aspects of each purchase?

By concentrating on the small differences, a community can make a large contribution.

I hate tree-huggers too, mind...
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  #45  
Old 23.03.2007, 11:08
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

For me the whole point is, 'what is causing global warming'. Statistically we cannot deny it or its effects. But even experts cannot agree on either its cause or extent.

But will changing all our light bulbs for ones that cost 8 times more and last half as long help anyone more than the manufacturers of these items?

Or is fighting global warming and worrying about our 'carbon footprints' nothing more than political posturing? I'm sure most politicians would prefer to talk about planting trees than solving unemployment or defending their position on Iraq.

The mammoths couldn't stop the ice age - can we have any effect whatsoever on slowing down global warming?
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  #46  
Old 23.03.2007, 11:31
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

Very few experts disagree that we are responsible for the current trend of accelerating warming Ab Fa, very few. There is a lot of noise coming from all sorts of people but it's noise and not much else, sadly it is rather loud (he said, metaphorically...)

There is a lot of political posturing indeed, that's probably the only thing politicians can do about it as being serious in slowing it down would mean sacrifices for you and I and that is not a vote winner
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  #47  
Old 05.05.2007, 02:29
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

Is there any mention in the Kyoto Accord of carbon footprint. If so this would mean that China are entitled to a much larger CO2 quota becuase they have more people. Compare the US population to China and the amount of CO2 produced.
Apart from the veggie flatulence, those who eat more, excrete more and cost more in health and transport etc. Generally the bigger the person, the more dependent on labour -saving devices, the bigger the footprint.
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  #48  
Old 05.05.2007, 12:39
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

In the Kyoto treaty, only industrialised countries agreed to reduce their emissions.
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  #49  
Old 05.05.2007, 13:07
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only

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Enough food? Tell that to the fish...The ocean ecosystems are verging on collapse due to overfishing. Current fishing levels and methods are not sustainable.
Litespeed, its not all doom & gloom, admittedly we have a long way to go, but this story is encouraging http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6627425.stm

I worked in fishery protecîon for 18 months during my tim in the Navy & what the Med boys take out of the Atlantic & coastal waters is frightening. On average at leat 20% of all catches we monitored were undersized.
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  #50  
Old 05.05.2007, 13:20
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

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Okay, suddenly the environment seems to be taking more headlines than terrorism. And so it should.

Its one thing for us to realise how much we are polluting the planet and exhausting fossil fuels, but as I see it the critical problem is overpopulation. There is too many of us.

The human race has risen above nature's first level population control measures. My question is: Will any efficiencies energy use or reduction in pollution be negated by our growing population? Can we do anything to control the population, and what effect would a decreasing population have on a world economy?


Discuss................
in china the law is one child for A family, What We need is EDucation, EDucation , EDuction , But not only that , WE all need to start look at our look at Waste, pepole need to start receycle, every thing , the way we package thing so much plastice cartoon ,the box is 2 the size of the countain in it , we all should start use natural surces, not use the car to walk 2 blocks Thats why we have Legs , if i can i use my bike , or publice transpormation , NOT my car , the plastice bad from the super i use it also as garbage bag & so on .....
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  #51  
Old 07.05.2007, 18:59
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

I will try to get hold of it to watch. This has been an ongoing dipute between my husband and myself. He gave me the same evidence. Whatever- the world is being polluted, so we need to go green. Many people are saying the scientists propsing that the greenhouse effect is not responible for global warming are in fact paid by the energy councils. It reminds many of the pro-smoking lobby.
Who are the funders for this research? It''s a really interesting subject, especially when you think of futures trading in CO2 and tax incentives for Green companies.
Barclays recently tried to get some kind of tax brreak saying that they wer suplying solar panels to Indonesia. sonds like where there's CO2 muck there's brass!

http://www.heatisonline.org/contents...85&Method=Full
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  #52  
Old 12.05.2007, 21:48
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only

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Comments about the documentary are welcome.
I came across this e-mail exchange. Martin Durkin is the producer of the thoroughly discredited mockumentary "The Great Global Warming Swindle" that was aired on C4 in the UK in March(?) 2007.
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  #53  
Old 12.05.2007, 22:43
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

This may sound like a far-fetched analogy but it reminds me of the Dyson story. Dyson invented and patented his vacuum cleaner, he then took it to all the manufacturers, no-one would take it on, so he marketed it himself and was very successful. Meanwhile the traditional vacuum cleaner maufactureres sought to dicredit Dyson while researching their own copies of his product. Now there are so many Dyson copies on the market.
The Energy companies wouldn't take Green on - not because it isn't a great idea, but because it would cost so much to change their production, first of all they have to sell/ get rid of all the old stuff, then they can sell the new stuff.
So my analogy is, first sell off the coal, while investing in new technologies. Meanwhile discredit the green companies, sell off coal mines and quietly buy up Green technology from competitors.
There will be a big prize for whoever manages to produce the most cost-effective solar panel.

Think of all the SUV's that are stockpiled in the US. What are they going to do with them start a Hummer museum?
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  #54  
Old 13.05.2007, 17:59
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

I beleive global warming exists. all I have to do is to walk into the city and I found that it's easily a couple of degrees wamer than out in the country, plus the air isn't as fresh. So one of the biggest concerns at present is to reduce CO2 especially when it comes to coal. As I understand it there’s is no such thing as clean coal, it’s a red herring. Please forgive the heavy plagiarization.
http://legalectric.org/weblog/1269/
But that doesn’t stop the industry from trying to sell it. The Vientiane Pact (formerly entitled the Asia Pacific Partnership on Clean Development), although vague in detail, is an agreement in principle,to tackle energy security, global warming and other issues through technology transfer.
http://www.srimedia.com/artman/publish/articles/article_906.shtml
Obviously there’s big money involved http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/4/17/04855/5611
Speaking from the United States, the Queensland Aus. Premier threatens the coal industry for failing to get on board with clean coal technology.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s1919617.htm
Obama is keen to promote liquefied coal, although as this report shows it’s not really that clean, but he has to keep Illinois happy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/09/AR2007010901503.html
Switzerland has one of the lowest carbon emissions per capita worldwide.
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  #55  
Old 13.05.2007, 18:17
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

The fuel industry prefers renewable liquid fuel over bio gas. Because it's more compatible with their processing and distribution systems.

There's a graph in today's NZZ am Sonntag displaying the CO2-bilance and ecological footprint of many alternative fuels (regrettably not available online). A few of them score remarkably bad, worse than fosil oil.
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  #56  
Old 13.05.2007, 18:40
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

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The fuel industry prefers renewable liquid fuel over bio gas. Because it's more compatible with their processing and distribution systems.


There's a graph in today's NZZ am Sonntag displaying the CO2-bilance and ecological footprint of many alternative fuels (regrettably not available online). A few of them score remarkably bad, worse than fosil oil.
Yes they need to invest time and money to develop different processing and distribution, in the meantime keep selling dirty fuel.
It also takes time to sort the wheat from the chaff with the alternative fuels, it doesn't stop them from being promoted and sold to a naive public. I haven't heard anything negative about wind power yet, except for the noise and people like the Kennedy's not wanting them to spoil the Cape Cod view. Oh, and the Audobon society may have a few complaints.
Still, Oil has far more casualties, what are the latest figures in Iraqi deaths?
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  #57  
Old 13.05.2007, 19:41
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

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Oh, and the Audobon society may have a few complaints.
Still, Oil has far more casualties, what are the latest figures in Iraqi deaths?
Apart from starting an illegal war in the first place, one of the other illegal things the UK and USA are doing is failing to keep an official tally of civilian casualties. There's an independent effort here:

Iraq Body Count
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  #58  
Old 23.07.2007, 19:27
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

The world still wants oil, thos who need it will just develop new techniques to dig deeper, or open up new fileds, they'll keep going till they scrape the bottom or till technology significantly changes. The Swiss can be proud to be doing more than almost all other developed countries.
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  #59  
Old 23.07.2007, 20:21
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

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The world still wants oil, thos who need it will just develop new techniques to dig deeper, or open up new fileds, they'll keep going till they scrape the bottom or till technology significantly changes.
The world may probably never actually run out of oil. At some point the remaining oil will require more energy to extract than it can produce. Even before that point it must become uneconomic to recover.
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  #60  
Old 23.07.2007, 20:44
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Re: Planet Earth..standing room only [climate change discussion]

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Apart from starting an illegal war in the first place, one of the other illegal things the UK and USA are doing is failing to keep an official tally of civilian casualties. There's an independent effort here:

Iraq Body Count
If I remember correctly, they've been discredited a few times for double counting and also taking in unsubstantiated reports of casualties that have turned out not to be true. I'll see if I can dig up something after dinner.
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