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  #201  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:03
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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It might not be enough, or be quick enough but high population growth isn't necessarily hard wired.
The urge to have children is strongly wired.
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  #202  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:09
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

Well that's what I wad saying in my first post on this thread. The battle is with our instinct for survival, which is obviously quite strong, not which percentage of the population needs to be educated, castrated or oblitorated.
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The urge to have children is strongly wired.
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  #203  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:13
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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The urge to have children is strongly wired.
You're not kidding! You should see the attractive benefits package which accompanies your offspring.

Wish I had gone down that route - I'd have been given a nice place to live (usually with a garden because that's good for the kids) and a regular income.

My wiring must be faulty...
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  #204  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:13
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

I am sleeping so well these days, since I joined this community. Rest assured, knowing that all of the worlds problems are being sorted by protracted and heated discussions on EF
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  #205  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:15
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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The battle is with our instinct for survival, which is obviously quite strong, not which percentage of the population needs to be educated, castrated or oblitorated.
And this is where you are wrong. Our instinct for survival is not our enemy, its our friend.
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  #206  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:15
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Saying that immigrant women have more children in Europe is not xenophobia, it's cold hard facts and statistics.
Is immigration really relevant to the global warming issue? If population is simply moving from one piece of the planet to another then does that materially impact the overall carrying capacity of the Earth? Sure, it has a social and economic impact for the host country but at the end of the day isn't migration simply neutral as far as the impact of population on global warming?
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Old 25.03.2009, 12:16
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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What struck me is how quickly the debate moved into population control without questioning the premise WHETHER the population really has to be cut to 30 million.
In fact, it happened so quickly that the very first post ended with the words:

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How the hell does a country go about cutting the population in half?
Almost as if the OP wanted a discussion about how to do it, rather than whether it should be done.

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My position is that in terms of dealing with humans and perceived "problems" of these sorts, we really should only be looking at humane solutions instead of anti-social ones.
I guess that's why you favour the "humane solutions" of war, disease and famine:

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War, diseases, natural catastrophes and famines typically balance out the population. I don't think it's necessary to try the DIY approach based on a couple of "scientists". Geez, you folks are so religious and devoted to your priests.
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  #208  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:18
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

Just to get back to the central thesis, is over population a myth or a reality? I find it hard to get away from the point that the entire world's population could be housed in the State of Texas in relative luxury (all living in 4 bed houses with a decent chunk of land). That leaves the rest of the world to be our breadbasket.

So as an enviromentalist layman, how can I be convinced that we are running out of space/resources etc..
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Old 25.03.2009, 12:19
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Is immigration really relevant to the global warming issue? If population is simply moving from one piece of the planet to another then does that materially impact the overall carrying capacity of the Earth? Sure, it has a social and economic impact for the host country but at the end of the day isn't migration simply neutral as far as the impact of population on global warming?
What? The post you quoted has nothing to do with global warming. And never did I mention global warming as linked to this issue, only in passing.
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  #210  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:20
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Is immigration really relevant to the global warming issue? If population is simply moving from one piece of the planet to another then does that materially impact the overall carrying capacity of the Earth? Sure, it has a social and economic impact for the host country but at the end of the day isn't migration simply neutral as far as the impact of population on global warming?
Nev, Anthropogenic Global Warming is still not proven, and up for debate in the next room.
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  #211  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:22
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Just to get back to the central thesis, is over population a myth or a reality? I find it hard to get away from the point that the entire world's population could be housed in the State of Texas in relative luxury (all living in 4 bed houses with a decent chunk of land). That leaves the rest of the world to be our breadbasket.

So as an enviromentalist layman, how can I be convinced that we are running out of space/resources etc..

I think it's only a big threat to the status quo. You clearly pointed out how it can be accommodated. The rest of the discussion is just political rhetoric.
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  #212  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:23
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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So as an enviromentalist layman, how can I be convinced that we are running out of space/resources etc..
I don't believe for a minute we can't grow enough to feed the world. Surely, the shortages are down to politics, tariffs, the manipulation of markets, and fixing of prices.

I'm no expert - but for example: paying farmers not to grow anything.
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  #213  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:25
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

Maybe it was our friend way back, when the planet was sparcely populated. I think it plays against us now.
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And this is where you are wrong. Our instinct for survival is not our enemy, its our friend.
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Old 25.03.2009, 12:27
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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I found that point quite interesting - I can't help thinking that women (and men?) have certain hard-coded biological urges established over thousands of years, that maybe you can delay in some cases by offering other choices - but you can't ever stop it.
The only person here who suggested "stopping it" was even part of the discussion, was Phos, with his straw men.

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Even if they all have great jobs, and are super-intelligent, they'll just take few years off, have their kids, then go back to work.
Yes, but the difference is they'll only have 1, 2 or maybe 3 children, not half a dozen.

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Seems like there's an assumption that 'poor' people are a) bored, and b) stupid - and thats why they pump out a big family.
It is a statistical fact that women who are educated, and have easy access to contraceptives and a life other than being a baby factory, only have a couple of kids. This fact can be observed at every level of human society, from a village to a continent.

There is no judgement, recommendation, assumption, influence, "engineering", or anything else inherent to observing this fact. It's just what happens.
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Old 25.03.2009, 12:28
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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But their kids are under no compulsion to.
No one (except you) is suggesting they would be.
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  #216  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:31
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Yes, but the difference is they'll only have 1, 2 or maybe 3 children, not half a dozen.
Yep, I can see that...

Maybe you don't influence so much whether they have them at all, but they generally have less.
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Old 25.03.2009, 12:37
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

I think some education for the men might not be such a bad thing as well. It wasn't that long ago in our culture, that women were constantly having babies. Due also in part, to men not educated enough to realise that practicing some constaint, at least after childbirth, was good for the woman and the family and even the community.
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......It is a statistical fact that women who are educated, and have easy access to contraceptives and a life other than being a baby factory, only have a couple of kids. This fact can be observed at every level of human society, from a village to a continent.....
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  #218  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:40
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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1. Improve overall education opportunities (statistically, the better educated a woman, the fewer children she'll have).
2. Comprehensive sex education and access to free contraception, including abortion (as above, the easier it is for a woman to prevent pregnancy, the fewer children she'll have).
3. Remove existing tax incentives for having children.
4. Optionally, introduce tax incentives for NOT having children (rather difficult to do fairly, hence, the "optional" part).
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stop reproducing, wait for people to die.
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But That needs more condoms, and Pope will not allow it!
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Muzzies make more babies than the local Brit because the social grants for an asylum seeker is better than the natives.
Here in CH an asylum seeker gets Sfr1000 for each child as social grants.if he or she has 10 kids that is 10 grand but for a local Swiss you get just Sfr250.This is a good opportunity population increase.
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"The planet can't support peoples' consumption therefore we need to cut the number of people". Simplistic reasoning suggests he's been hugging too many trees. Maybe he should come up with a slogan "Save the planet. Kill a friend".
Better still, stick it on a bus and start an environmentalist bus campaign
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My vote's for genocide. I don't have any particular dislike for any of the different ethnic groups in the UK so I'll leave that up to you UK folks to decide who is going to get the ax.
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The only person here who suggested "stopping it" was even part of the discussion, was Phos, with his straw men.
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No one (except you) is suggesting they would be.

Blindness or Myopia?
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  #219  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:48
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Just to get back to the central thesis, is over population a myth or a reality? I find it hard to get away from the point that the entire world's population could be housed in the State of Texas in relative luxury (all living in 4 bed houses with a decent chunk of land).
I didn't realise that the entire state of Texas was habitable land.

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That leaves the rest of the world to be our breadbasket.
It's not just about food, or even space. There are other fundamental limitations like clean water, energy, waste management and, most importantly, sustainability.

To say nothing of "softer" issues like everyone just getting along (would you really want to squash, Israel and Palestine in an area the size of Zurich ?).

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So as an enviromentalist layman, how can I be convinced that we are running out of space/resources etc..
At this particular point in time, humanity as a whole lacks the technology - and more importantly the social maturity - to establish and maintain a high standard of living for the entire world's population. We can't produce enough energy, food and construction materials fundamental to modern society (eg: plastic) without relying on fossil fuels, which are a limited resource.

Technology will almost certainly fix the technical limitations to a high population, but it's not going to fix the social and political barriers which, even in a world of limitless material wealth (something I believe - discounting any major catastrophes - we will hit within a couple of hundred years), will still take many generations after that to breed out.
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  #220  
Old 25.03.2009, 12:53
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Re: UK population must be cut to 30m

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Blindness or Myopia?
The only quote there that could be considered "compulsion" is this one:

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My vote's for genocide. I don't have any particular dislike for any of the different ethnic groups in the UK so I'll leave that up to you UK folks to decide who is going to get the ax.
Which, given the context, I'm going to assume was a joke.
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