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  #221  
Old 11.07.2007, 17:50
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Both sects quote learned sources to support their beliefs, tand debate is inconclusive. The interesting question is why some people are pro and others anti, just as some are liberal and others conservative......my feeling is that this is about puritanism. In the 90s it was AIDS, (don't enjoy sex too much) before that, famine in Africa (don't enjoy your food)........and now don't enjoy your toys (cars cheap flights etc)
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  #222  
Old 11.07.2007, 19:54
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Both sects quote learned sources to support their beliefs, tand debate is inconclusive. The interesting question is why some people are pro and others anti, just as some are liberal and others conservative......my feeling is that this is about puritanism. In the 90s it was AIDS, (don't enjoy sex too much) before that, famine in Africa (don't enjoy your food)........and now don't enjoy your toys (cars cheap flights etc)
thats right Felix ... 2,500 scientists are obviously wrong about their conclusions

as for your hypothesis on AIDs ... may I suggest fear of the unknown ?

& on famine in Africa, I find your comment immensely distasteful ....

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  #223  
Old 11.07.2007, 20:31
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Saw a man being interviewed on TV who is absolutely certain that the world is getting hotter. He was a trader from the snow capped north of our planet and the reason he is was convinced ? He’s had to give up his normal means of transport, a sledge, and buy a boat instead.
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  #224  
Old 11.07.2007, 20:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

This very noxious idea that there is still a debate to be had about global warming is the sceptics major asset, peddling a notion that somehow there is uncertainty. There is very little uncertainty if any, only those who express it make considerably more noise in the media and rely on "common sense", too often an euphemism for "I'm quite ignorant of the situation, I don't really understand any of the science therefore it is dubious and if <insert here name of shock jock/columnist of conservative media with an axe to grind> is scathing about it, there must be something fishy>. See Evolution/Creation "debate" for a similar situation.

Maybe politicians should move out of it completely, those mendacious truth distorter are never going to sell the idea of changing our lifestyles...
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  #225  
Old 11.07.2007, 20:37
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

2,500? That's quite a few. Mind you, there's still several hundred working on cold fusion, so I wouldn't rely on just the numbers...

http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-4/p27.html
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  #226  
Old 11.07.2007, 21:04
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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thats right Felix ... 2,500 scientists are obviously wrong about their conclusions

& on famine in Africa, I find your comment immensely distasteful ....
.....er.....and do you believe in God too? - according to a survey published in Nature in 1997, four out of 10 scientists believe in God. Just over 45% said they did not believe, and 14.5% described themselves as doubters or agnostics. This ratio of believers to non-believers had not changed in 80 years...........that's progress!

no famine in Africa was ever caused by large appetites in Europe my friend!
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  #227  
Old 11.07.2007, 21:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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.....er.....and do you believe in God too? - according to a survey published in Nature in 1997, four out of 10 scientists believe in God. Just over 45% said they did not believe, and 14.5% described themselves as doubters or agnostics. This ratio of believers to non-believers had not changed in 80 years...........that's progress!

no famine in Africa was ever caused by large appetites in Europe my friend!
Felix (lucky one ... makes me laugh) ... First off, we are not discussing theology, but global warming ...

Based upon your crank (10 year old source) stats that gives 60% that don't belive in a God as you think of him, meaning we end up with 1,500 scientists ( alot more brainpower than you or I) came up with a conclusion
that human activity is more than likely the main cause of Global Warming, can be just discarded, since you want to drive a Cayenne,

As for the Puratinism, FFS, most of us grew up through the Thatcher years & beyond. My formative years in London were far from Puritan I can assure you ... so bollocks to that.

I never said that Europeans eating more caused a famine, nor alluded to it in any way ... so whats your point ? I'm sure Bob Geldof & Bono weren't turning down the foie gras when it was going on, I didn't & have no guilt complex on it ...

so where does your theory come from, or are you just repressed & letting it all out .... were you the fat kid at school ?
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  #228  
Old 12.07.2007, 08:09
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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just stumbled upon this thread and I thought for those of you interested, this is the best page for the science behind CO2 and climate change:

http://www.realclimate.org/
I've posted this link before also. There is also a good "primer" for those who might want to get an overview of the climate change stuff (from the objective, scientific point of view).

Real Climate >> Start Here.
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  #229  
Old 12.07.2007, 08:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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So what if you want to look at other factors, but don't want petrol money? Good luck.

There's a few things that never seem to be addressed in the calculations.

1) (Going back upthread) Volcanic CO2 output (equivalent to the electricity production of the USA - you wouldn't leave that out, so why this?).

2) Natural warming after the Little Ice Age - we're still coming out of it and I've only ever seen this mentioned once in a paper.
Volcanic action is mentioned here, in the context of LIA.

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3) Effect of paving over areas of land.
IPCC models take into account estimates of emissions from concrete/ construction.
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  #230  
Old 12.07.2007, 08:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Do you really think this has not being taken into account in the global models available to researchers, like solar activity and natural cycles? I'm always surprised when I see those long lists that sceptics posts, I guess they imagine the topmost climate scientists looking at them and go "Duh, we forgot all about the sun solar flares, let's start again!"
You'd be surprised. Have you ever looked at the proof of E=mc^2 ? 'A' Level maths. Or the brilliant insight that was behind it?

I found a copy of a spreadsheet that contains the data IPCC use in their model scenarios. I found nothing about volcanic CO2. And, as I posted earlier, this omission is mentioned in the IPCC FAQ.

I suppose the question to answer is: Does ignoring about .1% of a forcing that is nonlinear make no discernable difference?
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  #231  
Old 02.08.2007, 00:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6926597.stm

So they've just discovered something has as big an effect as anthropogenic CO2. Now where does this leave all the models if 50% of all the recent heating is due to this aerosol pollution? Surely that means that the heating contribution from CO2 is somewhat overestimated?
That's what gets me about all this - the models are by no means perfect, yet an awful lot of people already thought everything had been explained to the point where anyone suggesting other sources of warming were obviously petrol-funded corporate sell-outs.
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  #232  
Old 02.08.2007, 07:56
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6926597.stm

So they've just discovered something has as big an effect as anthropogenic CO2. Now where does this leave all the models if 50% of all the recent heating is due to this aerosol pollution? Surely that means that the heating contribution from CO2 is somewhat overestimated?
Perhaps. But may I suggest you try and get a bit closer to the scientific data, rather than trusting the BBC to get it right in a science story, before you come to any conclusions? I, for one, welcome any new observations that need to be taken into account by the climate models.

On a similar note, this is about effects of ground level ozone on CO2 uptake on land. It seems to be based on models, not experimental observations.

Ozone impacts on climate change

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That's what gets me about all this - the models are by no means perfect, yet an awful lot of people already thought everything had been explained to the point where anyone suggesting other sources of warming were obviously petrol-funded corporate sell-outs.
Then an awful lot of people were wrong.

Last edited by BeastOfBodmin; 02.08.2007 at 07:58. Reason: Clarification. Reorganisation of text.
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  #233  
Old 02.08.2007, 08:17
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Quite right - I never fully trust the BBC, or really any other news outlet, when it comes to numbers, facts or much else, really, especially after having watched them gooning up an article on reenactment...
I saw that ozone report and thought 'nah, this isn't right...' as you'd still need a pretty hefty dose of the stuff to cause that effect.
It's sometimes awkward to track down references from news reports as they often don't give the name of the lead scientist, just whichever of the group would talk to them, and it's also rare they mention what journal they've lifted it from, although it depends usually on whether they've read the New Scientist or Focus (the BBC own that mag now and it's doubled in price while becoming a bit of a political mouthpiece...) properly...

Paper in journal -> review article / Nature -> New Scientist / Focus / other accessible science mag -> broadsheet / serious news channels -> tabloid / Sky News, some months later...

Ho hum.
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  #234  
Old 03.08.2007, 08:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Came across this earlier today, regards power saving potential around use of computer monitors ... the shape of things to come ? I already pull the plug every evening on my laptop & TV but never really thought of this ....
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  #235  
Old 03.08.2007, 18:36
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Came across this earlier today, regards power saving potential around use of computer monitors ... the shape of things to come ? I already pull the plug every evening on my laptop & TV but never really thought of this ....
Steady on Polorise! You might earn the scorn of DaveA for advocating such behaviour.
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  #236  
Old 22.08.2007, 14:50
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

quite a few behinds here ... admirably dumb, but childishly amusing at the same time
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Old 04.09.2007, 10:57
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Just came across this thread and was as usual intriged by the range of opinions and lack of conscensus that exists about what might be the topic of the decade (or century, depending on if you beleive Global Warming to be real, or just a media frenzy).

Thought some of you might be interested in a forum I've been frequenting which is devoted specifically to arguing both sides of the Global Warming debate: http://www.talkclimatechange.com

My own opinion is that there is still way too much fog surrounding this topic, with an arms race going on between opposing scientists and thier respective backers. However, it's not a risk we can afford to take so I would vote for urgent action.
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  #238  
Old 08.09.2007, 14:39
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Here's a thought - next time you go into a co-op or Migros, have a look and see how many open-fronted fridges there are. Now think about whether you'd live your fridge open all day at home. What a waste of energy, and almost as bad, it means every bottle of coke you buy from one is almost at room temperature with condensation inside the bottle...
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  #239  
Old 08.09.2007, 14:48
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I've never understood the open cooler concept. However, I just ran into an even weirder phenomenon. I just bought a coke at Denners, it was a closed cooler but all the cokes, even the ones in the back were only slightly cooler than the temperature outside. The lights that they have inside the coke cooler were physically hot to the touch. Cooler, hot light? Cooler, hot light? HUH?

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Here's a thought - next time you go into a co-op or Migros, have a look and see how many open-fronted fridges there are. Now think about whether you'd live your fridge open all day at home. What a waste of energy, and almost as bad, it means every bottle of coke you buy from one is almost at room temperature with condensation inside the bottle...
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  #240  
Old 08.09.2007, 14:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

It's a good point - maybe they should start looking at business sources before bashing into the general public over emissions, especially as business and industry puts out a lot more...
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