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  #241  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Truth or Dare ?

more bunkum on fuel cells, will be interesting to see what the outcome is

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An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised "technologies for replacement of electrochemical batteries,'' meaning a motorist could plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between Dallas and Houston without gasoline.
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  #242  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:19
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Very interesting, that, but it's not to do with fuel cells.
It does make more sense to use capacitors for acceleration, as said in the article and if they're onto something here, then it could really make a big difference. Capacitors can charge much more quickly than batteries as they rely on shifting electrons about, whereas batteries need to move chemical components about, which is a much slower process and why batteries take so long to recharge.
Have to wait and see, I guess.
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  #243  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:29
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Uh oh, like the iPhone thread-that-won't-die, this one stirs again, and I am drawn like a moth to a flame ...

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Truth or Dare ?

more bunkum on fuel cells, will be interesting to see what the outcome is
Fuel cells? I read the article and it talks about ultracapacitors, not fuel cells. But I agree with the bunkum bit - at least for now. Wait and see, eh?

There is this quote that made me cringe (my emphasis):

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"It's a paradigm shift,'' said Ian Clifford, chief executive of Toronto-based ZENN Motor Co., which has licensed EEStor's invention.
Ugh. Another abuse of Kuhn's term. "Quantum leap" anyone?
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  #244  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:38
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Very interesting, that, but it's not to do with fuel cells.
It does make more sense to use capacitors for acceleration, as said in the article and if they're onto something here, then it could really make a big difference. Capacitors can charge much more quickly than batteries as they rely on shifting electrons about, whereas batteries need to move chemical components about, which is a much slower process and why batteries take so long to recharge.
Have to wait and see, I guess.
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Uh oh, like the iPhone thread-that-won't-die, this one stirs again, and I am drawn like a moth to a flame ...

Fuel cells? I read the article and it talks about ultracapacitors, not fuel cells. But I agree with the bunkum bit - at least for now. Wait and see, eh?

There is this quote that made me cringe (my emphasis):

Ugh. Another abuse of Kuhn's term. "Quantum leap" anyone?

Both my bad & junior chemistry set .... still interesting article. I think where I get uneasy is when they state that only $7M was required to develop ...
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  #245  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:42
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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It does make more sense to use capacitors for acceleration, as said in the article and if they're onto something here, then it could really make a big difference.
More generally, it certainly makes sense to use an electric power train for acceleration.

0-60 in 1.5 seconds

OK, and some nitro as well ...

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Capacitors can charge much more quickly than batteries as they rely on shifting electrons about, whereas batteries need to move chemical components about, which is a much slower process and why batteries take so long to recharge.
Unless you're using a LiFePO4 battery from A123 systems, perhaps? From the little I know of LiFePO4, they appear to offer low charge memory and very gradual degradation of capacity during thousands of charge/ depletion cycles.

A123's USP appears to be a 5 minute recharge time - I don't know at what ampage though!.

Have a look at this (assuming it isn't bunkum): http://www.a123systems.com/newsite/i...power/pchart5/

Last edited by BeastOfBodmin; 08.09.2007 at 20:49. Reason: Add 0-60 in 1.5s bit.
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  #246  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:46
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Both my bad & junior chemistry set .... still interesting article. I think where I get uneasy is when they state that only $7M was required to develop ...
Indeed. Hey! I spent $5mio in the Widderbar last night . I agree though. Seems far too cheap. "Wait and see", eh? But see also my post about LiFePO4 batteries. A123 aren't the only company using this material, and it appears to possible to produce in laptop, mobile phone, Wiimote or MP3 player form factors.
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  #247  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Indeed. Hey! I spent $5mio in the Widderbar last night . I agree though. Seems far too cheap. "Wait and see", eh? But see also my post about LiFePO4 batteries. A123 aren't the only company using this material, and it appears to possible to produce in laptop, mobile phone, Wiimote or MP3 player form factors.
just been reading that & now my head hurts as though there is a gnome in there with a sledge hammer ..
Thought Telecoms was bad enough for jargony jibber-jabber but you boffins really take the biscuit ....
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  #248  
Old 08.09.2007, 20:53
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Both my bad & junior chemistry set .... still interesting article. I think where I get uneasy is when they state that only $7M was required to develop ...
Nah, I blame the journos myself...
$7 million isn't a lot, but then some things really don't need it. the materials look quite cheap and most of research is trying to eliminate systems that don't work. If you're lucky enough to hit on the answer in the first few attempts, then you might not have needed to spend much.
Still a case of waiting to see...
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  #249  
Old 08.09.2007, 21:15
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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just been reading that & now my head hurts as though there is a gnome in there with a sledge hammer ..
Imagine my head after the 5 or six large whiskies and vodka martini the $5mio bought last night.

Just look at the pretty graphs and pretend to yourself you understand. That's what I do.

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Thought Telecoms was bad enough for jargony jibber-jabber but you boffins really take the biscuit ....
Impudent youth! I did a few years in IT in a mobile phone selling outfit. Does that count as Telecoms? Worst thing I heard was "customer delight". In my book, a worse term than "paradigm shift". But not as bad as
"quantum leap".
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  #250  
Old 08.09.2007, 21:22
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Just look at the pretty graphs and pretend to yourself you understand. That's what I do.
Welcome to my world, except that the buggers expect me to make the bloody graphs...

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Impudent youth! I did a few years in IT in a mobile phone selling outfit. Does that count as Telecoms? Worst thing I heard was "customer delight". In my book, a worse term than "paradigm shift". But not as bad as
"quantum leap".
"Customer delight"? Isn't that taking the client to a strip club after a deal?
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  #251  
Old 08.09.2007, 21:26
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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"Customer delight"? Isn't that taking the client to a strip club after a deal?
certainly is in my business ...
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  #252  
Old 08.09.2007, 21:34
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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Is niiiice!
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  #253  
Old 08.09.2007, 21:37
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

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I've never understood the open cooler concept. However, I just ran into an even weirder phenomenon. I just bought a coke at Denners, it was a closed cooler but all the cokes, even the ones in the back were only slightly cooler than the temperature outside. The lights that they have inside the coke cooler were physically hot to the touch. Cooler, hot light? Cooler, hot light? HUH?
The 3 laws of thermodynamics, with a marketing spin applied.

P.S. Margaret Thatcher once told me that gas, a primary source of energy, should be just as expensive as electricity, a secondary/tertiary source.

The scientist in me said Eh? But of course, she was gearing up to sell the UK Gas Board off - duh - what an idiot I felt that I'd forgotten the marketing angle.
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  #254  
Old 08.09.2007, 22:49
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Hi everybody

You probably know a lot about global warming already, but for those of you who don't, or want to dig a little deeper I've set up a forum about this issue a few months ago.

It's at: www.climatechangeideas.net

I can especially recommend you these videos that give you a pretty good overview about the issue:
http://www.climatechangeideas.net/in...opic,84.0.html

There's also a video about the so called "global warming skeptics":


Personally I think it is a real problem we need to take action against now. Having said that, even George Bush (at least says) we should do something about it, and that says a lot

From what I can see is that currently, the only ones left saying it's a hoax are the oil producing states of the middle east (for obvious reasons).

PS: This post isn't meant to be an ad for my website. It's just that I happen to have one about it. I don't get any money out of it, if you visit it. It's just a personal project.
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  #255  
Old 08.09.2007, 23:00
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Well, i'm not skeptical that the climate is changing, but I'm still not convinced that CO2 plays as big a part as claimed, especially with some of the evidence provided in posts upthread.
Regardless of what is causing it, it's still a good idea to reduce CO2 emissions. Even if it isn't the primary cause, removing a fair percentage of emissions will help cool things down a bit.
If the predictions are as bad as some groups are claiming, then efforts to reduce output won't make any difference in time anyway, so personally I think that a technological solution might be better if one comes up in the mean time while efforts to reduce emissions are also carried out.
That's one of the reasons I would support nuclear power stations over renewable energy at the moment as they have the ability to reduce CO2 output using proven technology instead of relying on models, as much of the research on large-scale wind generation appears to (also see upthread).
Something I don't like (and I'm not saying this about anyone here) is when people who have only a vague understanding of the problem start banging on at everyone else just because they've bought two energy-saving lightbulbs. It's like a lot of causes - the holier-than-though brigade gets hold of it and puts a lot of people off.
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  #256  
Old 08.09.2007, 23:11
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I'm all for nuclear power plants too.

I cannot understand how the german "Greens" managed to get through a policy to replace their nuclear power stations with coal fired plants.
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  #257  
Old 08.09.2007, 23:16
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I'd love to see a comparison of the number of people who are harmed each year by accidents and leakages from nuclear power stations and the number of people who would be affected by rising sea levels...
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  #258  
Old 09.09.2007, 02:55
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

I'm quite late entering the debate, but I think I can add some references to the discussion. I'm a grad student from Caltech (California Institute of Technology, in Pasadena, USA) in Environmental Science and Engineering, so I had to take classes about climate change etc. even though I study water chemistry.

First, I made a little website to explain some environmental science basics to my non-scientist family, including a big section on global warming, which you can view here: www.its.caltech.edu/~farnswor/envsite

Secondly, a prominent Caltech professor named Nate Lewis has looked into the global energy budget in an attempt to decide where our energy should come from in the future in light of global warming. His work is pretty technical, but he discusses solar vs. wind vs. coal vs. nuclear. His website is here: http://nsl.caltech.edu/energy.html
Basically, he concludes that solar energy is by far the way to go. Nuclear energy runs into issues of building the required infrastructure in a reasonable amount of time to impact current climate change, as well as the amount of hazardous nuclear waste that we don't really know what to do with...

My goal is to share facts for the debate, and I hope I could answer followup questions people might have.
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  #259  
Old 09.09.2007, 09:45
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Nice site - but I'd pull you up on a couple of things:

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So, these data have been reviewed by the scientists who author the publication, by their reviewers who evaluate whether the data shown are of high enough quality for the journal, and by their peers who read the journal and bring up points of contention with their conclusions. If you don't believe it, you shouldn't believe any scientific publications, because this is how it works.
There's been plenty of peer-reviewed science that has turned out to be completely wrong from very small things, to very large things. On a small scale, I was looking into a certain magnetic system and over half the papers I found on the system had mistakes so bad, it rendered the results useless, yet they were in journals that required two or three referees who worked in the field to review the documents before publication.

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The science is largely politics-free
Rarely in a field like this is any science ever free of politics at some level.

As for it all being down to CO2, how do the two articles mentioned upthread fit into it? This is research from people who are not connected to oil companies or with any vested interest in disproving global warming due to CO2.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6926597.stm
(will try and find te other article about the effects of soot on ice cap melting and polar warming later...)

Don't worry - I'm not having a pop at you.

Solar energy is certainly becoming popular in Britain for microgeneration, and that can only be a good thing. I did notice on the back of an electrician's van the other day when i was back hom that they'd added 'solar panels' to the list of things they could fix, so either a) the demand is there or b) they don't work very well.... (just kidding).
Things is though, do we still need larger-scale generation through other means to power industry?
One thing that really wound me up was when the CND were that close to supporting nuclear power stations to reduce emissions, but then pulled out as their membership got all stroppy. Just what do those people think is the best solution, then?
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  #260  
Old 09.09.2007, 12:51
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Re: Global Warming - what's behind it?

Thanks for the feedback!
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There's been plenty of peer-reviewed science that has turned out to be completely wrong from very small things, to very large things. On a small scale, I was looking into a certain magnetic system and over half the papers I found on the system had mistakes so bad, it rendered the results useless, yet they were in journals that required two or three referees who worked in the field to review the documents before publication.
I certainly agree that bad work slips into journals. In this case, however, I would put forth that the journals most of this work appears in (Science and Nature) are recognized as the toughest ones to be published in, and their peer review is usually of a higher caliber than some of the other journals out there.
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Rarely in a field like this is any science ever free of politics at some level.
I agree as well. My point was more that the scientists were still doing their research as usual, and that the politicians only directly impact the text of the summary report, not the research itself.

I hadn't seen the BBC news article. The content of the brown clouds, aerosols, are widely recognized as one of the biggest unknowns in predicting climate. Past volcanic events have led scientists to predict that aerosols actually cool the climate (by blocking out the sun) - there's always a cool year or two after big volcanic eruptions. Ok, so first I would say that this research is far from a polished known entity. Second, the "brown clouds" are certainly due to human impacts, as these aerosols are by-products of wood and fossil-fuel burning:
Quote:
The main sources of the pollutants came from wood burning and fossil fuels, the team added.
So, while this isn't directly a CO2 impact, it's a by-product of CO2-forming processes.

If you want a more direct bad effect of CO2, try acidification of the oceans, causing mass die-offs. CO2 gas forms carbonic acid in solution (same thing you have in fizzy drinks), and draws down the pH of the oceans, which has been at 8.2 (slightly basic) for a long time. Just a change of 1 pH unit would have a major impact on marine ecology.

Finally, we should realize that the earth is currently not in equilibrium with the CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere. It takes about 500 years for the heat and carbon fluxes of the oceans and forests and whatnot to adjust to the new CO2 concentration. So, the impacts we're currently seeing are not the extent of the damage we're causing. Even if we cut off all CO2 production today, permanently, the earth's temperature would still increase over the next 500 years!

I would encourage you to watch Nate Lewis' talk about energy (link is on his website I cited above) - he covers the logistical and economic factors of building new infrastructure for carbon-neutral energy production. I don't think I can explain it much better than he did.
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